<p>I have lived many years in both Cleveland and Rochester. Case is more "in Cleveland" than U of R seems to be "in Rochester" but both are within cities with much culture (good parts of which are affiliated with the universities). Cleveland is a larger city than Rochester and as such I have found that it has an edge on cultural opportunities, but in a way, as Great Lakes cities, they have many similarities. </p>
<p>OP expresses interest in music - all 4 schools have are great choices but, unless you are admitted to Oberlin conservatory you are unlikely to have much direct access to many of the music opportunities there. The Eastman affiliation with U of R and the CIM affiliation with Case will probalby afford you more performance opportunities as a non-conservatory student interested in music. Case literally surrounds the home of the Cleveland Orchestra which is world-class.</p>
<p>U of R has more of a reputation for liberal-arts majors perhaps then Case, but both schools afford great education in the liberal arts and many opportunities - off campus as well as on campus. Wooster and Oberlin are, of course, dedicated lacs.</p>
<p>Oberlin, U of R and Case are places where students really give a darn about the kinds of things you are interested in. I know current students at both U of R and Case who are exactly that type of person - highly involved in causes- and have been given great opportunities to pursue their interests on and off campus, at home and abroad. </p>
<p>YOu have really done your homework as you have selected schools that sound like you. Other than the possible exception of Wooster, all have very diverse student bodies. All have involved student bodies. In a way, Wooster sounds the least like your ideal simply because of its size and relative isolation and probably has the most traditional student body. Oberlin has the least traditional student body. Cleveland can offer you many cultural opportunities, major league sports, and plenty of opportunity to get involved in projects where college students can and do make a real difference. It is more likely to be a place national political candidates frequent than Rochester. Cleveland is accessible to Oberlin with effort, of course Case is within it. The area around case is one of the more culturally rich in the city, but then beyond that, the neighborhood gets a little more gritty. Rochester can offer much of the what Cleveland does on a slightly smaller scale. And there is a larger % of the downtown Rochester that consists of neighborhoods than I feel there is in Cleveland.</p>
<p>"unless you are admitted to Oberlin conservatory you are unlikely to have much direct access to many of the music opportunities there."</p>
<p>You'd have to define "many", but my daughter has friends who are taking classes in the Con, though they are not majors. And my daugher has herself been getting instruction on her instrument from a Con student, for free.</p>
<p>This is an appropriate area of concern/ further investigation, but I wouldn't make assumptions that this would be a problem for your specific needs until you conclude such investigation. Lest you draw incorrect conclusions.</p>
<p>And the same investigation would need to be done for Rochester- where the Conservatory is not even located on the same campus, I'm told.</p>
<p>If the above post is accurate, then apparently Rochester has changed significantly over the years, since the person I know well who attended described it as a predominantly apolitical, more career-minded school overall. Suggest investigate further if this is important. Visit.</p>
<p>I have to disagree with a previous posters statement that Rochester is more grad student focused. The main school for undergrads is the Colleges of Arts and Sciences and Engineering and Applied Sciences. The undergrad enrollment for these 2 schools is close to 4000. The grad school population in these 2 schools is under 1000. Rochester has significant grad students in their medical, business and education schools - non of which are open to undergrads. My point is that the grad schools and undergrad schools are pretty seperate. Graduate TAs teach discussion sections of some of the lower level classes, but are never the primary teachers and the faculty are very accessible to undergrads. I think that UR has found a nice balance between teaching and research. Because of the relatively low number of grad students, research opportunities are readily available for undergrads in most departments. </p>
<p>As far as Eastman goes, it does have a seperate campus located downtown. There is a free shuttle that runs pretty regularly between the 2 campuses. UR students are eligible to take free lessons from Eastman graduate students and earn credit for them. The Eastman Philharmonia is a wonderful orchestra providing free concerts each month or so. Many of the concerts at Eastman are either free or available at reduced costs to students. </p>
<p>Rochester has a reputation for being strong in the sciences, but also has a lot of strenght the social sciences and the humanities as well. They have a top political science program and offer a terrific theater program that allows full access to productions to all students regardless of major.</p>
<p>Many students at Oberlin are attracted there specifically by the presence of the Conservatory. It's the only LAC in the country that has a world-class music conservatory attached. There are great concerts every night of the week, and as monydad says, College students can audition to take lessons. It's just not true that one has to be a Conservatory student to take advantage of it.</p>
<p>And to answer the OP's question: a LAC exists to educate undergraduates. Period. A university exists to educate both undergraduates and graduate students, and--judging from my experience as a grad student at an Ivy League university--the faculty at a university often pay a good deal more attention to their grad students than to the undergraduates.</p>
<p>shennie you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the perspective of an alumna of the University of Rochester that I am merely passing on. Expressed to me repeatedly, ad nauseum, vitually every time the subject of kids' college selection comes up.</p>
<p>Upon direct questioning last night, there was some of the big class/ TA stuff I mentioned. But mostly there was a feeling that the profs. were not that available to undergrads. That they had particular office hours, vs an open-door for their grad students, etc. A matter of attention and priority, it seems. Also she said this was not something she noticed so much while she was actually there. Rather it was something she noticed in contrast after-the-fact, when she attended grad school at a place that she felt catered far more to undergrads. She felt she got the order exactly wrong- she should have gone undergrad at the place she attended grad school, and vica versa.</p>
<p>I guess it's possible that everything's different now. If important might be worth investigating further.</p>
<p>Also I have to say that I've met a number of Rochester grads over the years, and they've done just fine. I think it's a great, underrated school.</p>
<p>I'm not knocking on Rochester at all, just reporting what I've got that may be relevant. If the environment of a research university is preferred by OP, and there are definitely reasons why it could be, then I think Rochester is a great choice.</p>
<p>On the other hand I have nothing relevant about Case to pass on.</p>
<p>As for apolitical - it may be that Rochester is that - but the student I know is anything but and is extremely happy to have found programs and opportunities to become involved in. The students I know at Case represent a broad spectrum - many seriously devoted only to studies, others seriously into computers, others out there making political waves and taking stands. As you are no doubt aware, the student body as whole at neither school approaches that of Oberlin in this regard.</p>
<p>Agree with MonyDad regarding about doing your homework checking into things and not meaning to make mistatements about the various schools and the music opportunities - nor to step on any toes MonyDad or dave72, or to give misimpressions - looks as if we were given an unfortunate and big misimpression on our vist and tour of Oberlin (quite a deliberate one actually)so I am glad those who have children at Oberlin were able to correct this.</p>
<p>Out of the ordinary opportunity for musical enrichment will abound at all 4 schools - just try to determine the level to which you want to be involved with music and to what degree that level is available to non-consevatory students, and, with regard to UofR and Case, exactly what the affiliations are with the Eastman and the CIM. It may be that equal opportunity for participation may exist at schools with no conservatory affiliation for good musician non-consevatory student , thus opening up more college choices. Not sure what OP's interest and ability level is.</p>
<p>Monydady - how recently did the URoch alumna graduate? URoch seems to be moving more twds liberal arts w/ elimination of the core, emphasis on admissions interviews and option of submitting graded paper in lieu of SAT scores.</p>
<p>Also, a colleague who graduated URoch at least 10 years ago has been urging D to attend. He doesn't recall profs being unavailable and says the academ advising was great. </p>
<p>When D visited URoch, colleague contacted former prof (now a VP), who met w/ her on short notice. We were happy for the personal attention and impressed by the fact that they had kept in touch over the years. (But D is still considering Case, primarily b/c of it proximity to Cleveland and family friends.)</p>
<p>Long time ago. Liberal arts grad, was fine back then too. Good school. She too would have no problem if my d wanted to attend. Provided d wanted what they offered, in that environment.</p>
<p>This dated perspective is not necessarily still valid, true, but it would certainly give me reason to want to check the current situation out futher, personally. Particularly since the situation as described was consistent with my own experience at a research university,the place hasn't shrunk, and campus cultures evolve slowly IMO.</p>
<p>Personally I doubt that the experience there is identical to the experience at an LAC. For better and for worse. But I'm not there; should be checked out.</p>
<p>Monydad: Thanks for your comments. My son is currently a student at Eastman who has taken classes each semester on the River Campus and has found the faculty to be open and available for the most part. (One prof for a philosophy class was awful and he ended up dropping it, but you will find that everywhere.) His girlfriend is a UR student and has also experienced open doors and availability while she struggled with the decision to leave Eastman and enroll in Letters and Science.</p>
<p>When we visited, son strolled through Biology and had a couple of in depth discussions with professors who were available at the time. I do imagine that students have to seek out opportunities to meet with professors and my guess is that UR does have more of a university feel to it rather than and LAC feel. But I live in a town with a major university and my image of a grad focused university is more akin to the large state university where undergrads can go 4 years and never have a 1-1 discussion with a professor. I suppose that could happen at UR as well, but my sense is that it is not that difficult to have personal contact with profs if it is desired.</p>
<p>Point well taken. I'm certain neither URoch nor Case has that LAC "feel."
Each has a considerably larger student bodies that your average LAC - - and more grad students.</p>
<p>Again, both are fine schools, but maybe not a good choice for a student who is unaccustomed to seeking out that attention. (Certainly neither would have been a good sch for me, but D's BF, who manages prof attention at UMass, would thrive at a school like URoch.)</p>
<p>I really don't like U of R. both of my parents went there and hated it, and I sometimes use the library for research resources (i'm a junior in HS) and it's rather run-down, confusing, and has a lot of outdated technology, plus some of the people who work there can be really snotty and unhelpful. and in the elevators, i'm often worried that i'm going to end up flattened at the bottom of the elevator shaft.</p>
<p>not that library elevators should be a determining factor in your college decision.</p>
<p>i'm deciding between wooster, beloit and clark for the fall, but i was accepted to rochester and binghamton for the spring. i haven't visited beloit yet. i saw clark yesterday and didn't really like it, which is disappointing, because it's the only place i can row (from the schools i'm considering for the fall). i'm seeing beloit this weekend, but i really fell in love with wooster when i visited it. i don't know what to do. i feel like beloit and clark (and rochester and binghamton) offer more and are much stronger on paper, so i should go, but i want to go to wooster.</p>
<p>Oberlin. Hands down. How is this even a choice? Think about down the road. Do you ever want to go to grad school? Oberlin would have a huge advantage in any grad program you apply. (Phd, MBA, JD....).</p>
<p>i've visited a bunch of colleges and when i got there, i wanted to stay. it was the only school i had that feeling at. i sat in on two classes and enjoyed both of them, and seriously wished i was in one of them (a history class called crime and punishment, not related to the book, but the class was collectively writing a research paper on the history of crime in wooster over the past 40 years.) i did an overnight on campus with seven girls who lived in a house slightly off-campus, although it's owned by the school. they were great and i had a lot of fun. i talked to other students and genuinely liked everyone i met. most people seemed very involved in the school and different activities, which i know is common at a lot of schools (and every school will say it is,) but they were very enthusiastic and it was almost expected.</p>
<p>the library facilities were great and i liked the campus a lot. here are a bunch of pictures i took from that weekend (a couple of weeks ago): </p>