<p>To those lucky/smart future doctors attending combined medical programs, please indicate schools to avoid (as a present student or as an interviewee).
Also elaborate on the strengths of the one chosen and now attending school/program.</p>
<p>Kentucky’s 6-yr. program.</p>
<p>Pretty much any one that is not guaranteed. So, Kentucky is one of them, and SLU I believe is another. Also, if you are an out of state student and you want scholarships, avoid UMKC’s 6 year program, because they flat out told me at the interview that I wouldn’t get any scholarships because I’m out of state. So, that’s about 50-60k per year for 6 years…</p>
<p>Wash U. in St. Louis - You need to maintain a 3.8 overall GPA and score a 36 on the MCAT. :|</p>
<p>I disagree with XelbMS. WUSTL is one of the best medical schools in the nation. It’s the equivalent of getting a guaranteed spot at Harvard undergrad if you maintain a 4.0 and get a 2350+ on the SAT in high school. Sure it’s hard, but it’s a lot easier than getting in the normal way. Taking the subjective part (essays, interviews, etc.) out of admissions makes it a lot easier, especially for top schools, even if the objective requirements are still difficult.</p>
<p>
This is subjective. Any U.S. allopathic school will give you a solid medical education regardless of their rank on US News, which is an arbitrary source to begin with since you, apparently, only care about extrapolating a medical schools “worth” based on a single number. </p>
<p>However, I don’t mean to say that Wash U isn’t a good school, but since you’re only in high school, I can’t imagine that you would have anything profound to say as to what separates “good” medical schools from the “bad”…other than using US news to justify your opinion.</p>
<p>Also, please do not fall under the guise that you will have absolutely no shot at going into academic medicine (in any specialty), for example, because school A has more research funding than school B. That’s ridiculous, and a very premature assumption (it also happens to be a criterion that US news uses to determine medical school rankings).</p>
<p>
No, it’s not, since you’re comparing apples to oranges. Maintaining a 4.0 in High School is not the same as maintaining a 4.0 in college. Scoring a 2350/2400 on the SAT is not the same as scoring a 36/45 on the MCAT. This is a common misnomer amongst high school students, and is not a difficult concept to understand. </p>
<p>
Someone applying to medical school with a 3.8 and a 36 on the MCAT is a clear exception, not the rule. This part of your posts rests on the assumption that a medical school applicant must have stats like Wash U’s, or else they do not stand a chance. Whether or not your “views” agree with it, many applicants DO MANAGE to get into medical school with weaker stats. In any case, it is much EASIER to get in through the normal way than through Wash U. BS/MD programs with requirements like a 3.5/24, for example, WOULD be easier than the normal route. </p>
<p>
Sure, taking the subjective parts does make it easier…if you want to stay in the program. But what happens if you want to apply out? Sure, you have that nice GPA and MCAT score, and I’m sure many in the Wash U. program do manage to make it…but I’m also sure that there are some who decide to apply out. In any case, do these people have time for extracurriculars like volunteering and shadowing if all they need to worry about is maintaining an obscenely high GPA for a “guaranteed” spot? If they do manage to rack up decent EC’s, will they still have that 3.8 and 36 they absolutely must have in order to continue?</p>
<p>No other medical school would take them without these, which is why for the unfortunate few that do not make it or decide to apply out, they are SOL unless they can REALLY justify their lack of extracurriculars. Reasons related to maintaining a high GPA are not valid, by the way.</p>
<p>Having been through the process, I agree with randomness3451. 3.9 and 37 and I got into 5 out of 25 medical schools I applied to (and that would be a “successful” application process). </p>
<p>What it comes down to is the fact that there are few top med schools that offer BS/MD programs. Would I rather do Northwestern’s program than WashU’s? Probably. Would I rather do WashU’s than Drexels? Yes. </p>
<p>HSers and even college premeds routinely overestimate the difficulty of achieving a good GPA and MCAT and underestimate the difficulty of achieving EC’s/recs/interviews worthy of getting into a top med school. A 3.8/36 is necessary but not sufficient to get into a top med school under the normal application process. Having clinical experience, research experience, volunteering is necessary but not sufficient to get accepted. On the interview trail and among my current classmates, we have D1 athletes, book writers, former investment bankers, Rhodes Scholars, Marshall Scholars, Fulbright Scholars, former pro football players, former Olympic qualifiers, PhD’s, former lawyers (and yes, I met all of these people in med school or while interviewing). These are the rule, not the exception when it comes to Top 5 med schools. “Good” letters of recs don’t get it done when it comes to getting accepted to Harvard Med or WashU Med or UCSF. LORs that say “this is the best student I have ever taught” are what gets it done. “Good” interviews don’t count for jack. Everyone has good interviews. An interviewer remembering you 6 months later at a dinner because you were so memorable is what gets it done.</p>
<p>So, if you are satisfied with your Drexels and Albany Meds (and these are fine med schools), fine. If your dream is to go to a cream of the crop med school, WashU’s program would actually be the easier way to do so. Getting a 3.8 college GPA is a lot easier than doing Peace Corps in a remote African village for 2 years or becoming chef of your own restaurant or starting up your own biotech company (more people I met while interviewing).</p>
<p>WashU’s program is classic high risk-high reward. If you just want to become a doctor in your hometown, by all means, go to your local state school. If you want to do something amazing later on or become a leader in the field, you might want to consider aiming higher. My med school graduating class’ USMLE average is 240 this year. I could’ve gone to my state school and become a “big fish.” Students who constantly hide from challenges are not those that become well-accomplished in their fields. It’s not for everyone but I think it’s short-sighted to think that schools like WashU aren’t for anyone.</p>
<p>:P</p>
<p>Fine, I concede. If this is just concerning “top” medical schools, then I agree that Wash U’s program is a sufficient way of obtaining your “dreams” to get into a top tier medical school since all you need to pass through are numbers. HOWEVER, my argument was based on the process of getting into medical school altogether (any tier), and not just limiting yourself to amazing institutions like Yale, Hopkins, Harvard and etc. </p>
<p>In a situation where if all one cared about was going to medical school to become an M.D./D.O. (since most realistic premeds, by their junior year, know that they can’t get into a top tier medical school if they don’t have the stats), then I still standby what I said. I still believe, in this case, the Wash U. program would not be worth it if you were not dead set on attending a top tier medical school. With BS/MD programs that have lower requirements, however, this eases the burden for those of us who are not sure if we can thrive (by thrive, I mean 3.8+) at the collegiate level. At least, to me, it always isn’t about getting into a top tier medical school. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, we will all be doctors whether or not you have a degree from Harvard or from Howard.</p>
<p>I will also lay out what I think should be important considerations:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Don’t apply to a program where you hate the undergrad. Med school is a bear regardless of what med school you end up going attending. It will be the hardest 4 years of your life at that point. So, make sure you live it up in college. Don’t go to a college that you absolutely hate or don’t fit in. I hope everyone who interviews at a BS/MD program takes the time to visit the associated undergrad as well as the medical school. You WILL burn out if you have to suffer through college as well as med school. </p></li>
<li><p>Don’t go to a program where there is tension between the BS/MDers and the regular med students. The dynamics between the BS/MD students and the regular med students are different at each med school. Be sure to ask both BS/MD students as well as med students who got in the normal way about interactions between the two groups. You will depend on your classmates a lot during med school: to cover for you on the floor when you need to take a nap in the on-call room, as study buddies, for emotional and moral support, for friendship. Don’t go to a school where there’s a rift between the two groups.</p></li>
<li><p>Accelerated programs, especially 6 year accelerated programs. I know a lot of you are dying to become the youngest doctor in your town. Honestly, your college years will be the best years of your life. Don’t shorten those years. Whether you end up practicing for 42 or 40 years, it won’t matter in the end. But, the biggest regrets I’ve seen are those who say they didn’t take enough time off between college and med school. Live your life. Medicine can wait. </p></li>
<li><p>Programs that have no requirements at all. I understand the point of these programs is to lower the stress level. But, having a MCAT requirement of 26 and forcing you to take the MCAT is better than not having a MCAT requirement at all. When it comes time to take the USMLE, you don’t want the last major test you would have taken to be the SAT’s 6 years ago. As much as you think you have a on/off switch, you don’t. You don’t automatically go from dealing with no stress for 4 years to suddenly being able to manage an inordinate amount of stress. It’s a process, not a flip of a switch.</p></li>
<li><p>Any school that’s on probation, on the verge of being on probation, or making curriculum changes. You don’t want to be the guinea pig for some brand-new curriculum that could totally flop. Ask about these things when you interview. </p></li>
<li><p>Lastly and, most importantly, don’t go to a program just because it was the only one you got into. Research these programs. Talk to the students. Don’t just blindly apply to 20 programs just to see which ones you get into. Apply to programs you truly want, not just the programs that may want you.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Notice I said nothing about residency lists or USMLE scores. Those are too variable from year to year and are more-or-less a function of student quality, not school quality. A school that has an average USMLE score with average students isn’t really a red flag. UMKC has a below average USMLE score. Is that surprising? It has, for the lack of a better word, below average students. We wouldn’t expect its students to be scoring 230’s on the USMLE. That alone doesn’t make it a bad school.</p>
<p>norcalguy - very insightful comments
XelbMS - I see where you’re coming from, and yes the WUSTL program probably isn’t worth it for some people. However, there are clearly people who could benefit from the program and that’s why I believe you should not include it in a list of “Do no apply to these combined programs”. When applying to these programs, people need to weigh the risks and benefits and determine what works for them. The answer will be different for everyone.</p>
<p>I agree with norcalguy 100% on not applying to 20 different programs.</p>
<p>I stayed with a host at the undergrad that I will be attending and she is in the BS/MD program as well. When I told her I only applied to three BS/MD programs she wa shocked, because she applied to literally 20 programs. She chose this one without visiting, and hates the college. </p>
<p>I only applied to three because I only liked three. Make sure its a college you like!!! That made the end decision process much less stressful.</p>
<p>norcalguy,
“3.9 and 37 and I got into 5 out of 25 medical schools I applied to (and that would be a “successful” application process).”</p>
<p>-You must have applied only to very selective top Med. school. My D. (MCAT lower than yours) applied to 8 and was accepted at 4 and waitlisted at 2 others (withdrew, so we do not know results). She was rejected only at 2 out of 8. She applied to wide range of schools. With your stats, you could have been accepted to many more than 5 out of 25 if your list Med. School’s was be different.</p>
<p>THANKYOU noncalguy for your list of important considerations!
I have heard about GW med school on the verge of probation or so a few years ago. How is it doing now?</p>
<p>I am similarly impressed and commend the analysis and insights of Norcalguy. I appreciate all your posts.
My niece a freshman at UVA med sch said that GWU was on probation when she applied (regular route). My daughter this yr did not get an interview for the combined program although she was accepted by BU/Case combined and Stanford among others. I thought GWU was still on probation when we got no response from the school. But apparently interviews and acceptances were made. Can someone who will be matriculating confirm? Thanks.</p>
<p>blackhole, i am matriculating into the gwu 7 year next year, also got a few med acceptances (BU, SBU, PSU/Thomas Jeff) but i love gw as an undergrad school, and their approaches to teaching medicine appealed to me more than thomas jeff, and BU was not doable financially for me. the fact that they were recently off probation and aren’t a top research school are things i know, but don’t particularly mind cause it’s a top fit for me. I am worried though about the way that GW is undergoing curriculum changes and has no MCAT req, but I knew that no MCAT would mean grueling USMLE studying. </p>
<p>my advice to future applicants is to ABSOLUTELY avoid applying to schools you wouldn’t go to. i loved GW from the start, and it’s where i’m going, but i know that if i didn’t feel as strongly about the school i would not have made it through their selection process.</p>
<p>Congratulations on your acceptance and start of what will sure to be a successful medical career. My exposure with GWU graduates in residency have been favorable. As colleagues and as supervising faculty. I think the school is expensive but very good. It has reputable graduate schools (law, business etc), which are strong mid tier, and on the move. The location is unbeatable.
(Cluster similar schools: NYU. BU, USC, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Tulane, Emory etc)
Bottomline: Well known, good reputation and strong mid tier. The probation issue while problematic, is not characteristic and doubt will cause persistent negative factor on well-established reputation.</p>
<p>norcalguy had an EXCELLENT post on the first page. I agree with everything he says.</p>
<p>To comment on his points 2 and 3 as a BS/MD student myself, I find that there is almost always a rift between BS/MD students and regular medical students simply because the BS/MD students have gotten through undergrad together and already have such a close bond, regardless of the program. </p>
<p>When you go to your interview day or your second look, make sure that you love the people that you are interviewing with or doing the program with because they will be your friends and the people you absolutely rely on for the next 6 or 7 years of your life.</p>
<p>Can someone comment on Northwestern’s HPME and Brown’s PLME?</p>
<p>In regards to Brown PLME, it is a great program on paper–the freedom to explore other interests as well as a guarantee to a good med school.</p>
<p>However, I talked to a couple of girls in the program earlier in the year. Keep in mind, that this may not be a general consensus, just their opinion. They told me, point-blank, the program is not worth it. They say they have a greater workload than other premeds due to a high gpa requirement(which is always increasing). Also, Alpert is a good med school, but it is not a top med school. Considering the fact that PLME caters to the Harvard cross-admits, it may not be worth it(since you are kicked out of the program now if you apply out).</p>
<p>Again, this is just an opinion, and I would definitely NOT say its a program to avoid or anything, its just not all sunshine and rainbows.</p>
<p>I disagree with Norcalguy. Coming from a good med school is not necessary to become a leader in the field of medicine. Actually, med school means little when applying to top residencies, so getting into a top med school should not be a high priority. Getting great USMLE scores should be, however.</p>