<p>I agree about the Conduct Unbecoming an Officer....but....I think it is more on the premise that MIDN should conduct themselves as officers (i.e. they are held to officer standards). I'm pretty sure if MIDN rated a salute, it would be widely known across the fleet.....there would be a publication (i.e. an OPNAVINST or U.S. Code).</p>
<p>This is what I found: In the United States Navy a Midshipman is for all intents and purposes an officer cadet, although the rank of Midshipman is still an appointed line officer rank in the Navy, similar to the Royal Navy. The rank of Midshipman is utilized by the U.S. Naval Academy, U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, and Naval ROTC. Midshipmen wear uniforms similar to those of U.S. Navy officers, with rank insignia which varies by school year. A Freshman (Midshipman Fourth Class or "Plebe") wears no collar insignia, a Sophomore (Midshipman Third Class or "Youngster") wears a single fouled anchor on the right collar point, a Junior (Midshipman Second Class) fouled anchors on each collar point, and a Senior (Midshipman First Class or "Firstie") wears fouled anchors with perched eagles, or a Midshipman officer rank. Marine Corps options wear enlisted Eagle, Globe, and Anchors in place of the anchors or crows. Shoulder boards have a gold anchor (or Marine Option EGA), and stripes, slanted or horizontal, indicating rank, except for Midshipman officers, whose shoulder boards have a small gold star and horizontal stripes indicating their rank. Midshipman officer ranks are those of the U.S. Navy, but the collar insignia are gold bars, for the ranks of Midshipman Ensign (one bar or stripe) to Midshipman Captain (six bars or stripes) in the Brigade of Midshipmen at the U.S. Naval Academy and in Naval ROTC, with the second highest Midshipman grade being Midshipman Commander, which is the highest rank at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy. A Naval Academy Midshipman receives about $850 a month for expenses, but it is usually greatly reduced by books, barber, and uniform bills. NROTC Midshipmen receive a $250 to $400 monthly stipend if they are on scholarship or advanced standing after their sophomore year. All NROTC Midshipmen are issued uniforms, typically service dress blues, service khakis, summer whites and dress whites. Some NROTC units may issue camouflauge utility uniforms to the majority of students, but all NROTC Marine Option Midshipmen and Naval Academy Midshipmen receive them.</p>
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[quote]
OK, since someone asked about salutes, here's a question about a new ensign/2nd Lt's first salute. I know there is a tradition of the new officer giving a silver dollar to the person who offers the salute, but is that person usually a friend or family member? If there is a friend or family member who retired as an officer, can they render the first salute, even though they outrank the newly commissioned officer? (Yes, I know there are many, many hills and turns in our roller coaster ride before that can happen. Just wondering, for now.)
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<p>You can really do whatever you want with the tradition. In my case, I returned any salutes that I got, but I saved my silver dollar for my grandfather who was a retired LTCOL in the Marine Corps. The intent of the tradition is probably to give it to the first person who salutes you, but really you can do it whatever way you want... It made for a great photo-op with my grandfather</p>
<p>So your grandfather saluted you, even though he was a retired LTCOL? What a great memory to have.</p>
<p>the answer to who is due a salute is clearly spelled out in Army Regulation 600-25:
"b. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel. Salutes will be exchanged with personnel of the United States Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marine Corps, and the Coast Guard."
While I'm sure that midshipmen in khaki or blues look like officers to junior enlisted , they technicially do not rate salutes. (And The UCMJ does not consider them officers- it considers them as Cadets or Midshipmen on active duty. ) Hence the old tradition of paying the silver dollar to the first salute rendered to a newly commissioned officer from a junior- this is because this is the first time (officially anyway)that he/she is in the position of returning a salute as opposed to initiating one. (It's a tradition- not a law so if you want to salute your grandfather first- it is a nice photo-op and memory- so why not?!)</p>
<p>This is a Navy discussion, therefore Army Regulations do not really apply. The Navy regulation states basically the same but does not define an officer as either commissioned or warrant, simply 'officer', leaving the interpretation of who is an officer undefined. I have never seen anything in writing that defines a midshipman as an officer candidate or cadet officer, only as an officer. This is what we were taught when I was a midshipman. I cannot imagine a situation which would have caused things to change. Probably intentionally vague and open to interpretation. I would not want to be the Commander who suddenly decided that it was time to enforce a marginal regulation.</p>
<p>The 'silver dollar salute' is a tradition which is not specific to the Academies but to all commissioning sources, probably started in OCS programs and, being a nice gesture, eventually adopted by the SAs so I would hold no logical conclusion from it.</p>
<p>"This is a Navy discussion, therefore Army Regulations do not really apply. "
Having seen a number of USNA69 posts before - I guess I walked into that one. (I'm not sure why USNA69 doesn't feel similarly constrained from commenting on the USMA pages for example but - so be it). However despite USNA69's comments- who is an officer and who is due a salute is a matter of law (USC Title 10); the UCMJ; as well as shared protocols- of which the Army Reg 600-25 is referenced by the other services and references the customs of the other services. Further- if you read the Midshipman Summer Training Handbook (NAVEDTRA 37301P) it is clear that midshipmen are officers in training- not officers (Mid2/c for example are assigned to stand enlisted watchs and should perform routine manual labor and maintenance-not junior officer watches)- so I believe that time (40 years in your case and 31 in mine) is playing tricks on you and you have conflated being taught to "act like an officer" with "being an officer". Of course no one is likely to call out some unsuspecting E2 who salutes a midshipman- the correct thing to do is return the salute and drive on. As far as the silver dollar- the tradition started because the first time you are entitled to receive a salute is upon commissioning- when there is someone junior to you to render the salute. It seems clear that there is a logical conclusion to be drawn from that tradition- but if you can't draw it I won't serve as an artist for you.</p>
<p>keydet, maybe I can serve as an artist to you. I, unlike you apparently do not welcome mine elsewhere, welcome your comments on this forum. I certainly hope that with whatever military experience you have, that you realize that Navy regulations apply to the Navy and Army regulations apply to the Army. Navy people follow Navy regulations. Army people follow Army regulations. They aren't the same, neither the personnel nor the regulations. Do I need to keep drawing? My comment was simply that, since we were discussing Midshipmen, that the Army regulations did not apply. For example, Army personnel salute indoors and uncovered. Navy does not; so there is obviously different interpretations as to what is required by federal law. </p>
<p>In the Navy, enlisted personnel often stand officer watches. Do we 'draw' a corollary of your summer training example and declare them officers?</p>
<p>I had a PM this AM from a mom. If a midshipman requires a base sticker for his automobile, will he receive a red one or a blue one? Should they be issued a blue sticker, what conclusion would you 'draw'?</p>
<p>The silver dollar salute is an Army tradition recently adopted by the Navy and the Naval Academy. Since I never participated in this tradition, does your logic require that midshipmen were officers during my tenure?</p>
<p>You should lighten up a little and not be so paranoid. Welcome to the USNA forum.</p>
<p>Here is the USNA PAO explanation of the silver dollar:
Silver Dollar Salute
A long honored tradition in all the United States armed services is for a newly commissioned officer to give a silver dollar to the first enlisted person or Midshipman who salutes him or her. It is believed that the one dollar allotment given an officer for an aide in the early 19th century is the origin of this custom. The silver dollar signifies the deep sense of gratitude an officer has to the enlisted ranks for the knowledge they pass on and for the respect they give in providing a greeting by their salute.</p>
<p>"I had a PM this AM from a mom. If a midshipman requires a base sticker for his automobile, will he receive a red one or a blue one? Should they be issued a blue sticker, what conclusion would you 'draw'?"</p>
<p>i dont know much and i am not totaly sure, but my dad was a naval officer and he said that
"when we (my mom too) drove in to base we would be saluted. even if i wasnt in the car, your mom would be saluted because everyone knew to salute the blue sticker."</p>
<p>my guess is that if you are an officer you have a blue one and if you are not, you have a red one. </p>
<p>take my comment with a grain of salt though, that was 13 years ago.</p>
<p>grad/dad- cool answer. It does go back in the Navy a long time as well despite the post above - my Dad participated in the same ceremony when he started his 30 year career as a Navy officer in the very early 1950s (although from USMMA so I suppose that you may claim that is not germain to a USNA conversation). I do recall vividly the SFC who posted himeself at the end of the comissioning line and collected a couple of hundred $$ (and probably carpal tunnel or bursitis as well )for his efforts on that day 30+ years ago. He did in fact deserve that gratitude and when I ran into him 5 years later when I was an O3 and he was a CSM - I told him so- and did so again when he became the CSM of the Army. He and the NonCommissioned Officer Corps that he topped were and are the real heart of the Army. </p>
<p>USNA69- Undoubtedly I should take my own advice and lighten up. I do have a question though- if in fact Mids are due salutes- then how many of the enlisted personnel assigned to the academy do so daily to the thousands of targets that they are undoubtedly faced with every day ? (Rhetorical question as you know the answer as well as I). Logically though if you are correct- those sailors should be emulating helicopters as their arms fly to their brow every 30 feet or so shouldn't they? I don't know where you came up with the concept that a Mid (or a Cadet) is legally or customarily an officer . The issue really isn't even disputable- Midshipmen and Cadets are not officers legally- possessing neither a commission or a warrant. By USC T10 they legally rank below the lowest rank of officer (W1) and other than your post asserting otherwise they are not officers by custom either- or at least not since the 1840s prior to the founding of USNA when they were treated as warrant officers. They are in fact and practise - officers in training. I am curious about how many of your classmates would say that they were officers in 1965 as opposed to 1969 or would recall that they were taught that were officers at that point. I suspect they were taught to conduct themselves like officers- not that they were so in reality.
This is philosophical stumbling over mouse droppings- while a Mid probably shouldn't go looking for salutes- they are a symbol of respect between ranks and to correct a junior or ignore them would be embarassing which is something an officer should go out of his way to avoid doing. So salute and drive on.</p>
<p>Lets attempt a little reverse keydet Army logic. Enlisted personnel are, by definition, those who enter into an enlistment contract by signing a DOD Form 4/1, Military Enlistment Document. Midshipmen do not enter into this contract therefore midshipmen are not enlisted. Midshipmen are issued green active duty military ID cards therefore they are in the military. In the military, there are only two classes of personnel, either enlisted or officer. Since they are not enlisted, they must be officers. I will happily cede this discussion, if anyone can show me any Naval regulation or Public Law which authorizes a third class of active duty military.</p>
<p>As far as the salute goes, when I was at USNA there were no enlisted instructors and really very few enlisted stationed on the Yard. The first enlisted person likely to salute us would have been after reporting to our first duty station. It was after the senior enlisted were incorporated into the Executive Department that I am sure the custom first became relevant. However, it is always nice to hear from 'experts' who were not there and have no idea.</p>
<p>Here's a simplistic question. If all Midshipmen are officers, why is the only commisioned officer in each company called the Company Officer?</p>
<p>Quoting USNA69: "I will happily cede this discussion, if anyone can show me any Naval regulation or Public Law which authorizes a third class of active duty military."</p>
<p>Paragraph 2.25 of this instruction issued by the Commandant of Midshipmen is titled, "Relationships with Enlisted Personnel." In part, this paragraph states, "Personal relationships between Midshipmen and enlisted members..."</p>
<p>Paragraph 2.30 of this instruction is titled, "Midshipman-Officer Relationships." In part, this paragraph states, "Personal relationships between Midshipmen and officers..."</p>
<p>In the spirit of good, clean debate I argue that, as a career Naval officer, the Commandant is an expert in identifying other Naval officers and enlisted members of the Naval services. Given that this expert, in a formal Naval Instruction, has clearly separated Midshipmen from either enlisted personnel or officers, that Midshipmen do, indeed, form a third category of active duty Naval personnel.</p>
<p>OK, I couldn't resist. My previous reference was a Naval Instruction. There is also evidence in US law that Midshipmen are not officers. Not only are the terms "officer" and "midshipmen" used to delineate two types of service, but "officers" cannot even count years as a "midshipman" towards their time of service "for any purpose." </p>
<p>10 USC 971 - Sec. 971. Service credit: officers may not count service performed while serving as cadet or midshipman </p>
<p>When you are a Midshipman you get a blue sticker for your car (officer)
You are allowed to use the Officer's Club (officer)
You can be punished for Conduct Unbecoming an Officer (officer)
You do not have to be a commissioned officer to rate a salute. Warrant Officers rate a salute.<br>
Although your time at the academy does not count toward military retirement, it does count toward time for government service.
When they used to do NATRON cruises. The third class wore dungarees, ate in the enlisted mess and were not saluted. The first class midshipman were treated as offciers, including being saluted and eating in the wardroom. But that was in the '70s. I have no idea what they do now</p>
<p>USNA69 wins,
on the same link 2012mom? posted on page 26 under Saluting Etiquette:
"a. Midshipmen shall render and return salutes and appropriate greetings as required by proper service etiquette"</p>
<p>If they can "return salutes" doesn't that mean that they rate receiving one?
I don't know if this solves the discussion of them being officers or not, but according to the commandant of midshipmen, midshipmen do rate salutes.</p>
<p>It goes against my better instinct to attempt to educate Army officers in their own customs and traditions, especially those who attempts to bring doubt to my creditability, but I guess one has to consider their source of education. Maybe one day we can start a thread as to why one would pay their own money to be yelled at. (smilie, haha) </p>
<p>In the British Army, newly commissioned officers were assigned an enlisted soldier to train them, teach them the regiment's history and traditions, and ensure that their equipment met appropriate standards. The Continental Army could not afford this luxury; however, each new officer was given a dollar for this purpose. The purpose of this dollar was to help them find an enlisted person to help them become situated as an officer. Thusly, the tradition of the silver dollar began. Not to reward the first salute as an officer at all but to acknowledge the enlisted personnel who helped train them in the intricacies of being an officer. Parts of the Navy adopted the tradition just prior to WWII when the OCS training facilities began producing mass quantities of officers in preparation for the war. Enlisted instructors were a viable part of this training process. In AOCS, I am not so sure of the exact practice, but the pocket in which the Gunnery Sergeant places the coin has significance. My assumption is that this practice became a viable part of USNA customs and traditions only after senior enlisted were assigned positions within each company. It became one last chance for the Ensign/2nd Lt to thank those who helped them on their road to success.</p>
<p>grad/dad: Thanks for the list. The only thing I would add to it is the significance of the gold 'chin strap' on the combination cover. Gold definitely signifies only officers.</p>
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You are allowed to use the Officer's Club (officer)
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</p>
<p>Per the Unite States Naval Academy Officers' and Faculty Club Accents newsletter: Membership is open to all active duty and retired officers and faculty, DOD civilians GS-7 rating and above (or equivalent), all 1/C Midshipmen and USNA Alumni Association Members</p>
<p>Underclass Midshipmen do not rate a membership. They may use the O Club with Parents.</p>
<p>This is a specific ruling to the USNA facility only and due to the sheer numbers involved. When we were there, no midshipmen could use the club at all. However, throughout the rest of the fleet, midshipmen, regardless of class, were welcomed in all officers' clubs, officers' only beaches, officers seating in the base theater, etc. Just saw some mids last week in Va Bch at the Officers beach.</p>