Challenge to Texas top 10%

Parents Forum
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<p>Blue: they do remediate some kids, but sometimes I think they prefer to let them fail out. UT has a 70% graduation rate. If everyone hung around, there wouldn't be enough room!</p>

<p>Strick: The GCs at our school told us that 80% of the slots at both UT Austin and TAMU College Sation were "taken up by" top 10%ers. Doesn't sound exactly like they are reserving the spots, but rather begrudgingly following the law. The GC also said it may move from getting the campus you want, to just getting in. </p>

<p>Simba: True...some programs require 1%-2%. </p>

<p>And yes, it has not made major inroads into the diversity issues. It has done a rather nice job of overcrowding the campuses though!</p>

<p>Our school puts the top 10% rule in the worst light. About five years ago we consolidated two 5A high schools because the community would not agree with any new boundary lines. Only when we consolidated, it added more majority students to the top, and more minority students to the bottom. Last year there were three black students in our top 80 or so students in the top 10%. (Our class varies greatly--starts with 1200, down to 900 beginning of senior year, and about 730 by January) I am not sure about how many Hispanics or those who count themselves as such, but they are 50% of the school makeup and they were not nearly 50% of the top 10%.</p>

<p>Anyway, in our school, the top 10% spots were taken up by mostly Anglo kids from wealthy and upper middle class families. My son felt bad that he opted not to use his slot. Only six kids from his class left the state, and all were in the top 10%. </p>

<p>Mini: the UIL debate topic for this semester is equalization of school funding. :)</p>

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<p>This policy is nothing but a socializing policy. What it will do that kids will not take the hardest course load but rather take easier course and not challenge themselves. And it is shame that kids who do not take past geometry will be considered in top 10%? Why take challenging courses like AP chemistry and AP Physics C, or even AP BC Calculus as it may drive the GPA down? Without the inquisitive skills, just base the decisions based on feeling rather facts. Wow!!!!</p>

<p>This University is a top 10!!! Unbelievable</p>

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<p>Discussing the 10% rules in Texas reminds me of the almost unavoidable conversations students who wear the typical student "outfit" get dragged into when traveling. Invariably, the conversation follows this pattern:</p>

<p>Location: Aisle 17 - Student in middle -cheap- seat between two well-dressed individuals </p>

<p>Stranger 1: Humm, I see you are going to [fill the blank]. Good school.
Student: Yes, sir.
Stranger 1: So, you like [fill the blank]. Heard it was tough to get in.
Student: Yes, sir [with a smile]
Stranger 1: Did you do well on the boards? What was your GPA.
Student: Huh [thinking to retaliate with and an equally inquisitive "How much do you make or spend on drinks?"]
Stranger 1: Yes, what did you get?
Student: Well, I was 98-99% percentile and had a solid GPA
Stranger 1: Humm [not certain he understood the percentile]
Stranger 1: Gosh, with those stats, you could have made it to UCLA or Cal [if this talk happened at LAX or Califonia locale]
Student: Could be, sir. [trying to avoid telling stranger, he never cared about UCLA or Cal]
Stranger 1: I am telling you son, there is a value to attend a good school.
Student: I can see that, sir ... that is why I attend [fill the blank]
Stranger 2: Sorry to interrupt, but this is very interesting. See my niece is n the midst of applying and I heard that ....
Stranger 1: Yes, it is amazing how little kids know about the real world and about schools.
Student: [pretend to go to sleep]
Ensuing lengthy discussion betwen Stranger 1 and 2, covers all the myths -debunked ad nauseam on CC- of college admissions and quite a few of obviously fabricated anedoctes.<br>
Stranger 1: Hey, the kid fell asleep. What's new? Let's order a beer ... betcha that the noise of opening the can will wake him up!<br>
Aisle 16 to 19 join in the laughter. </p>

<p>The reality is that the large school systems like UT or UC are facing a tremendous challenge of devising a system that will comply with their stated mission to educate almost all their citizens and address the rapid changes in demographics. While the UT system is far from perfect, I think that there are few models that could be emulated. In particular, it seems that the correlation between demographics and student population in the flagship schools in California shows how easy a well devised system can spin out of control through abuses and manipulations. </p>

<p>What is the real impact of the 10% rule? UT does not fill its freshman class with top 10% applicants - 66% is the real number. </p>

<ul>
<li> First-time freshman applications for the summer/fall 2004 semesters were down (-1,511) from last year?s all-time high of 24,519, but that still represents the second largest number of
applications in the University?s history. (See Table 1.)</li>
<li> The number of admits was 11,788 (+2.5% from 2003) and was back to levels typical of the late 1990s. The admit rate for 2004 was 51%.</li>
<li> Of the 11,788 admits, 6,796 enrolled for the fall 2004 semester for a yield rate of 58%.</li>
<li> The number of top 10% students enrolled in 2004 (4,241) was down very slightly (-48). However, because the size of the entering freshman class was larger, the percentage of top 10% students declined from 70% to 66% of Texas high school graduates. (See Table 2b.)<br></li>
</ul>

<p>Source of full report: <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/student/admissions/research/HB588-Report7.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.utexas.edu/student/admissions/research/HB588-Report7.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>The full report does a good job in breaking down all application statistics and first-year performance. Incidentally, one could notice how well the SAT tracks the first year performance of freshmen. </p>

<p>It is undeniable that some students are victimized in Texas, but the problems stems mostly from the abuses and gamesmanship of the applicants. I would also like to see additional conditions on the top 10% rule to ensure a minimum level of preparation, especially for UT-Austin. As it stands, the top 10% students decide about the school, and as Strick said, not the program. As far as I know, the CAP (Coordinated Admissions Program) does not apply to the top 10% and that the only remedial program requires to start school in the summer versus the fall. See <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/student/admissions/research/CAPreport-CAP01.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.utexas.edu/student/admissions/research/CAPreport-CAP01.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As far as the private schools, I doubt that the 10% rule has much impact on them. For example, one could check the matriculation of St Mark's School in Dallas. Link at <a href="http://www.smtexas.org/campus/counseling/matriculation.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.smtexas.org/campus/counseling/matriculation.asp&lt;/a>.
It is quite obvious that the direct admission at UT does not mean that much to the top 10% of the school. It is also noteworthy that the students of SM attending UT tend to be accepted at programs that are not subject to direct admission (Business, Engineering, Communication, among others). The absence of ranking is not an issue: UT can use the detailed profile to reconstruct the rank of the 80-90 students. The big issue is that, despite admitting a large number of students, has to accept that the majority elects not to enroll. I am not sure where you'll find the victims here! </p>

<p>Harvard University - 5/5
Yale University - 6/7*
Princeton University - 1/1
Dartmouth College - 3/3
Brown University - 1/1
Columbia - 0/1
Cornell University - 1/3
University of Pennsylvania - 3/4
Stanford University - 1/3
MIT - 1/3
Duke University - 2/4
Washington University in St. Louis - 1/10
University of Texas-Austin - 4/20
Southern Methodist Univ - 1/7
Texas A&M 0/3<br>
* One student rejected Yale to attend UNC as a Morehead Scholar </p>

<p>Again, the examples are only that. It is impossible to draw general conclusions from one school only. On the other hand, you won't have to look very far to find someone who would love to tell you how private school kids are victimized by the top 10% rule. You only need to travel to Love Field -the local city airport- and board a Southwest plane with a UT Tee-shirt. :)</p>

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<p>Xiggi: I think the real victims are the minority kids in schools like ours. They've been pushed out by the upper class gamers. It was intended to help them get in to UT and A & M, and instead they are pushed out.</p>

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<p>"This University is a top 10!!! Unbelievable"</p>

<p>ParentNY, UT is renowned for a number of very competitive programs, of which none provide automatic admissions for top 10%. For instance, the Business school typically fills with a combination of top 1-3% of Texas and very strong "foreign" -as in non-Texans students. It is based on such policies that UT can maintain its leadership in programs like accounting or MIS. In accounting, UT has the best program for UG, Graduate, and Doctoral programs. Surprisingly, its Classics program is no slouch either, as they surpass known schools like UVA in many statistics. </p>

<p>Do not let the admission process fool you!</p>

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<p>Then again, we sent two gamers to the Business program this year. One never had Physics because it would "hurt their GPA." I heard they were failing Calculus this semester. Neither candidate cracked a 1300 on their boards. I guess we provide the bottom half that makes the top half possible. ;)</p>

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<p>Texastaximom, I do not disagree at all. </p>

<p>Actually, I left this whole issue of my earlier post. According to the statistics, there are numerous minorities that have benefitted from the system. Minorities have the highest ratio of acceptances under the top 10% rule. </p>

<p>There is, however, a darker angle in the 10% rule: many students of poor districts do not even bother to apply despite being auto-admits. They do not consider UT and especially Texas A&M great schools for them, or simply cannot afford the tuition and financial aid packages.</p>

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<p>I have a secret suspicion that much of the uproar around this relates to UT's sudden unreliability as a safety school. The only kid who fits the stories I've heard of who got turned down from our high school was one who did a lackluster job on his UT application and essay and went 0 for 4 to his prefered choices. He was very surprised UT didn't admit him. </p>

<p>I have nothing to base it on but a feeling and a couple of anecdotes, but the kids in the middle ground, the ones not so sure getting into a more selective school suffer little more than being accepted into a school in the UT or A&M system with the promise they can transfer after a year if they maintain a 3.0 gpa. It's a fair offer, but not what someone from a community where all the children are above average is expecting.</p>

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<p>I wonder why the minority percentage rate stays so static then? At any rate, yes, with the tuition deregulation a lot of kids down here "get their basics" at the Comm. College and then try to transfer in, with not so great results. It's much harder than they've been led to believe. Ditto for transferring between campuses.</p>

<p>I think Texas Monthly reported the last round of tuition hikes making it about $142 per tuition hour? UTD is trying to attract more applicants with the McDermott Scholars program.</p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>I do not know about past but in future, if this university fills the kid with top 1-2% who failed to complete even the competitive subjects. In that case it is a sham and it is not worth its name. I do not know all facts but I see that it is a major problem for university’s reputation down the line. If this university fail to attract bright kids as they may see it as nothing but a social place and not challenging enough. It will have repercussion for it. Marketing is everything in life. Remember HYP even has to play these games.</p>

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<p>parentny as Xiggi said, don't let the admission process fool you. UT has third or fourth highest NMF after Berkeley. UT's endowment is second to only Harvard. UT's research budget ranks amongst the top 10 in the country, UTs plan II admits students could go to any top tier LAC (see below for their stats), UTs engineering consistentely ranks in top 10-15. I can go on. Actually, we Texans are lucky to have UT as lucky as Californians - if we can't go outside to private schools, UT is wonderful. The size has disadvantages, but it also has many advantages.</p>

<p>Of the 180 entering first year students in Plan II:</p>

<p>SAT I test scores:
Average SAT total: 1444
Average SAT Math: 720
Average SAT Verbal: 724
middle 50% range of SAT total score: 1400...1510
middle 50% range of SAT VERBAL score: 680...770
middle 50% range of SAT MATH score: 680...780</p>

<p>Average ACT composite score: 32.68
middle 50% range of ACT composite score: 30...33</p>

<p>National Merit/Achievement Recognition:
Of the 180 entering freshfolk:</p>

<p>.01 % = 1 National Achievement Scholar
3 % = 5 National Hispanic Scholars
33 % = 59 National Merit Finalists
7 % = 12 National Merit Semi-Finalist
33% = 59 National Merit Commended
78% with National Merit Recognition</p>

<p>Think of UT as a two schools.</p>

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<p>The key here is PLAN II...only 180 students can be accepted. That is more selective than an Ivy if every freshman were to apply to Plan II. Only 180 out of how many thousand freshman get that experience? </p>

<p>UT may have a lot of NMF, but not per capita, when you consider the size of their enrollment. (over 50,000) The average SAT for UT in general is more like 1240.</p>

<p>The average applicant from our high school that attends UT has less than a 1200. I think we've had one admitted to Plan II in the last three years. And we have no Merit Finalists this year, no semis, four commended.</p>

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<p>thinking of UT as 2 schools is probably right. In addition to Plan II, there are honors programs in natural science, computer science, and I'm not sure what else. The honors students even have their own dorm. Add to the honors programs the kids accepted into the departments like business which do not comply with the top 10%, and you have a fairly good sized group of top tier students. Then there is a huge mass below that the university all but beats off with clubs. They are the ones taking 500 person classes, or being taught by grad students, or being set up to fail or drop out.</p>

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<p>Texas137. Ummm,ummm. Sounds pleasant. Doesn't it? I must have missed that part of the sales brochure.</p>

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<p>My junior year I was in the top ten percent of my class(TX HS), now I am a Senior in the top six percent and probably won't get accepted into UT because I now live out-of-state. It sometimes sucks having a parent in the military!!</p>

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<p>S is a Texas resident but goes to boarding school out of state. The 10% rule doesn't apply to him. That means that, despite good grades and scores, we can't consider our state university a safety! He will apply to Indiana next year as his safety and try for direct admit to the Kelley School. (my alma mater). We are still in the market for a LAC safety, but we have time.....</p>

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<p>everytime, I hear from my friends tell me how they see valedictorians & top 1% from el paso, or somewhere close there, fail intro courses =/. top 10% does have its negative effects, but many students who get in think these events are hilarious, not serious.</p>

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<p>This University is a top 10!!! Unbelievable<<</p>

<p>Parentny, I'm not from Texas, but I do know something about politics in a state legislature with a large number of rural county legislators. My guess is there are a lot of big schools in TX, and a lot of little small ones,too. Getting a critical mass of students to offer some of the courses you mention will be very difficult at these high schools (that's why changing to requiring a particular curriculum is so controversial), but the rural legislators have to be on board to get the legislation passed, and, has been mentioned, AA is a dirty word to a lot of these same legislators. Not "socializing", it is an interesting experiment in "equalizing" with perhaps unintended consequences.</p>

<p>I hear you Mini, about funding, the problem we have seen here with the Robin Hood funding is that it tends to lead to lower funding for everyone, instead of higher funding for the have nots.</p>