Chance to get into an Ivy School

Parents Forum
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<p>Yes, Harvard Math 55 packs three years of math into one year or something like that. But it is the triple honors version (the regular “sophomore level”* course is Math 21, with Math 23 and Math 25 being the single and double honors versions; all of the honors versions add in material from “junior level” math courses).</p>

<p>However, it would not be surprising if the student in question in this thread will have already completed university math courses covering much of the material in Harvard Math 55 by the time he enters a university as a freshman.</p>

<p>*It is likely that many students taking this level of course are freshmen, probably an even higher percentage for the honors versions.</p>

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<p>Somehow I don’t think that your hearsay “evidence” is any kind of proof that overall, H, Y, and P lack intellectual rigor. So let’s see: these students that you “heard of” managed to bypass the core curriculum requirements, so that they could earn passing grades (because they must not have been smart enough to take the challenging classes, nor, supposedly, had they any motivation to do so – despite 4 years of illustrious records at their high schools). Sorry, this just doesn’t compute. And I’m not talking about the handful of poorly performing secondary students whose parents are big donors. Because if that’s what you’re talking about, such students are not representative of the cutthroat competition seeking entrace into these universities.</p>

<p>And just FYI, there is a ceiling on the number of P/NP grades that can be earned per semester.</p>

<p>I’m sure that there are a minority of students who strive to locate the “easiest” courses, earn C-'s in those, and graduate ignobly from H, Y, or even P (and Chicago, and MIT, and CalTech, and Oxford and Cambridge). I’m not sure what your point is, unless it’s sour grapes. But it is at least an obvious attempt to devalue, with bias, universities about which you have a beef.</p>

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<p>epiphany - I get the feeling you like to twist everything. so I dont really care which way you want to interpret it? If I want to call it skating through and you want to claim extremely hard, it is kind of irrelevant to me (how would you know every school’s every classes’ rigor anyway?)</p>

<p>I had a nephew attend the admits weekend a couple of years ago at Harvard and here is his dad’s version of the input from students his son met. </p>

<p>How hard are the following classes - a, b, c, d, x, y, z - If you take it with so and so professor you can get a B+ with a little effort, and more effort gets you an A. It is similar across board - there are always classes with specific professors where the grades are easier to come by if you dont want to work too hard. So if there is no question of flunking a class, where is the threat?</p>

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<p>It would not be surprising if there was a significant number of students (not just at HYP, but anywhere) who sought out the “easy A” courses at their schools to boost their GPAs for medical or law school admissions purposes, since medical and law schools are generally believed to not care about the rigor of course work taken (other than the pre-med course list for medical school).</p>

<p>But that may not be that relevant to the student in question in the original post. What really matters is whether there are at least some highly motivated students in math and music at whatever school he attends, to give some intellectual stimulation in interaction with them and with instructors who teach accordingly due to their presence. The presence of other students who are relative “slackers” or “easy A” GPA-seekers may not be too relevant if the student interacts with similarly motivated math and music students and faculty.</p>

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<p>ucb - i agree with you. my nephew is a premed major elsewhere and i have no doubt his line of questioning had to do with the concern for keeping up the gpa for med school. He was admitted to several combined BS/MD programs and getting back into one of the medical schools with a lower gpa was a major concern.</p>

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<p>I have family members at a top college/Ivy and have never heard about anyone starting a hospital in Bosnia, or digging irrigation ditches in the Sahara, or anything else like that. I’m sure there are a few people like that, but not many. I really think that people have an exaggerated view of the population at HYP.</p>

<p>It isn’t about individuals, it’s about the mix for the class as a whole. It is about whether they need a tuba or a French horn this year. Admissions is holistic and not based on stats or GPA, once you make a certain cut off.</p>

<p>Focus on music versus Intel is perfectly fine. It’s great that the son really loves what he is doing enough to resist the pressure. I think the family should relax and let him develop on his own as much as possible. He can think about applying when the time comes, but should also know about and hope for some other schools too.</p>

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<p>fiveacres, I think you have it exactly right in post #112. Your son is one of those kids who NEEDS the stimulation of intellectual–and musical–peers. Yet excellence does not happen just because one is in that environment. It may well inspire, but one must be inspired to work and strive towards excellence.</p>

<p>I have the impression that the math program at Princeton might possibly suit your son better than that at the other Ivies. I don’t know much about the musical opportunities. At Harvard, there is the dual program with the New England Conservatory, or if he didn’t wish to commit himself to that, easy access to many high-level musicians in Boston. (The Harvard Radcliffe Orchestra is okay, but does not compare favorably with good regional youth symphonies, especially the brass section.) At both Yale and Princeton, there is access to teachers in New York, but it is logistically more difficult. I would be surprised, though, if there were not some really excellent teachers associated with the universities. </p>

<p>epiphany, I think you are seeing in MiamiDAP’s words what YOU believe. Not what she has stated over and over and over again in multiple threads, and not what she is saying here.</p>

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<p>These aren’t safeties by any means, but Tufts and JHU each have joint programs with conservatories – Peabody for JHU, and the New England Conservatory for Tufts (and some other Boston-area schools). There are a LOT of serious musicians at MIT. A fair number are also math majors.</p>

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<p>Columbia, either Columbia College or SEAS, might be a great option. They have joint programs with Juilliard and Manhattan School of Music (closer.) And even if one doesn’t do a joint program, lessons are possible at both places.</p>

<p>Columbia has a very intellectual atmosphere because of the Core. Everyone quotes Plato. LOL.</p>

<p>I can’t argue with the poster who said the math offerings would not be challenging enough at Williams; I am not knowledgeable enough. But at the last orchestra concert when majors were discussed for graduating seniors, from a very small group, several were math majors. I can’t remember where they were going, but one was heading off to a fully funded PhD program at U of Michigan. CountingDown and other people other than me would know if this is a good program or not.</p>

<p>There is a semi-professional orchestra with local professionals and faculty, as well as the student orchestra. </p>

<p>MIT is an intriguing choice because a student strong in the arts would appeal to the adcoms.</p>

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<p>I agree with this. My older DS’s high school gf and best friend both got into Harvard. (DS applied ED to a non-Ivy, and went there.) I knew both these kids pretty well, and although they were clearly smart, cool kids, they were nothing like the hypothetical prodigies that have been described here. It is true, as has been said many times, that getting into an Ivy is a crapshoot. For example, DS’s best friend applied ED to Brown and did not get in. I can’t remember if it was a deferral or a rejection, but in any case it was very upsetting to DS’s friend – until the Harvard RD acceptance came through. But saying it’s a crapshoot does not mean that regular smart kids, without mind-blowing resumes, don’t get accepted at HYP. </p>

<p>For sure, the OP’s son should not count on an HYP acceptance, but I would say that he has a decent shot, especially if he can convey a sense of his personality in his essay. </p>

<p>For the record, though, I agree that there are many other wonderful schools out there that would accept the OP’s son, and at which he would be very happy and get an amazing education.</p>

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<p>Based on the discussion, it looks like the school characteristics to look for should include:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Strong math program, including at the graduate level (student will likely exhaust math offerings at an undergraduate-only school). Strong related subjects like statistics, computer science, economics, and finance may be desirable for some math-oriented students. (To the OP: is the latter true for the student in question?)</p></li>
<li><p>Strong music program.</p></li>
<li><p>Ability to find a community of other highly intellectually motivated and curious students in math and music, and faculty supportive of such students. (To the OP: Is it important to the student for there to be a large number of students in general at the school who are highly intellectually motivated and curious?) </p></li>
<li><p>At least as good overall (considering all of the characteristics important to the student) as the safety (full ride at Maryland College Park, which tends to have rankings around 20 for math and related subjects and around 45 for music – of course rankings do not mean everything in terms of academic and non-academic fit).</p></li>
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<p>One other thing that may be something the OP should consider: would a large number of breadth, core, or general education requirements be something that the student would enjoy in getting exposure to other areas of study, or would they be viewed as an annoyance to him resulting in him putting minimum passing effort into them and not learning as much as the intended goal of such requirements? Some schools, like MIT and Chicago, have a large set of breadth, core, or general education requirements that are intended to ensure that all students get a well rounded liberal arts education, while others, like Brown, have little or no breadth, core, or general education requirements (but most schools are in between). Note also that a large set of breadth, core, or general education requirements may crowd the schedule if he is double majoring in math and music.</p>

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<p>[Strong related subjects like statistics, computer science, economics, and finance may be desirable for some math-oriented students. (To the OP: is the latter true for the student in question?)] - yes. In math/Stat, here is what he has finished, AP Calc BC, AP Stat, Multivariable Calc & Differential Equations, Linear Algebra Adv. Wants to do Discrete math in senior year but not set yet because of schedule conflicts. Which year would these put him in terms of college curriculum? Music, on the other hand, although he is very good performing wise, he needs systematic training in theory, composition, conducting, chamber music… Among young musicians at his level, technique is a given, musically, understanding, interpretation and self discovery become more important and exploration to other areas become necessary.</p>

<p>[To the OP: Is it important to the student for there to be a large number of students in general at the school who are highly intellectually motivated and curious?)] - yes</p>

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<p>Looks like he has completed what is ordinarily the freshman and sophomore level math courses for those majoring in math and related areas (statistics, physics, engineering, and math-heavy economics).</p>

<p>As an entering freshmen, he would likely be choosing from junior level courses for math majors, such as abstract algebra (403), real analysis (310, 410), advanced linear algebra (405), etc. (course numbers from Maryland College Park [catalog](<a href=“Home | The University of Maryland”>Home | The University of Maryland)</a>). Note that these are much more proof and derivation oriented than most freshman and sophomore level courses. If the nearby university is Maryland College Park, he may want to consider Math 310 there for an introduction to upper level math.</p>

<p>If an overall environment filled with highly intellectually motivated and curious students is desired (as opposed to simply finding such a community of such students in his areas of interest, even if there are many other “slacker” or “easy A GPA seeking” students around), then that may favor schools like MIT and Caltech and others where “easy” courses and majors are less available (which deters the “slacker” and “easy A GPA seeking” students from enrolling).</p>

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<p>fiveacres, UMCP is very good about allowing folks to test into the appropriate placement for math (or CS, if he is interested). It is also very easy to major in math and get a CS major out of it, too. Lots of people do it, and the CS department is top 15 with excellent post-grad placement. With a full ride at UMD already in pocket, your S can afford to aim at some specific targets that would meet his particular needs.</p>

<p>If your S had a GOOD MV/DiffEq class, he’d be about ready for junior-level courses such as Analysis. At UChicago, he’d likely place into Honors Calc, which is MV/DiffEq with LinAlg thrown in, only they derive it all and proof it themselves – or they’d put him in 19900, which is an intro to proof (not unlike the math 310 ucbalumnus mentioned above). Most colleges will do placement for math anyway. </p>

<p>I know folks who took the MV/DiffEq class at S2’s IB school and said they were glad they retook it in college. S1 took it at the math/science program, and placed out of it at college with no ill effect. We did not worry about what would get credit and figured S would wind up in the class where he needed to be, and he did. </p>

<p>S1 (math major) looked at LACs and realized that he would need more depth than they could provide. (Disclaimer – not a slam against LACs. He started in IBL Analysis and graduate combinatorics at UChicago freshman year. He came in with a lot of background under his belt.) Williams has probably the best rep among traditional LACs for math, with Swat following closely. Harvey Mudd is a science/math LAC and they have an <em>excellent</em> math dept. Coming into an LAC with MV, DiffEq, Lin Alg and Discrete is probably the effective upper limit for a math major in order to have enough to keep one happy and challenged for four years, unless there are allied fields (CS, Econ, Bio) one wants to cross-pollinate with. </p>

<p>Don’t discount MIT. Math/history/music folks are not as uncommon as one might think – and Sloan is a good place for the quant/social science folks to thrive. S1 got into MIT, Chicago, Harvey Mudd and UMCP (full merit ride) and picked Chicago because he wanted the depth in the social sciences/humanities. Has had some regrets about not choosing MIT, but has been very happy with his Chicago experience nonetheless.</p>

<p>My advice is twofold: focus on schools where he feels would be a good fit for his interests and talents, and where he feels he can find his people. He then needs to spend a LOT of time on essays that speak to who he is and what makes him tick. The hardest part of the application process is for the student to get the courage to unload his hopes and dreams and quirks on paper. The essays can not be a rehash of activities on the resume.</p>

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<p>Agreed. That’s why I’ve made the suggestions I’ve made. :)</p>

<p>Ivies have no monopoly on any level of academic challenge & excellence (including math, naturally!). But neither is the reverse true: that they represent some kind of dumbed-down safety school. People who state or insinuate this have an axe to grind, major. </p>

<p>Tons of excellent universities out there. That’s why thousands of college-age students from many countries seek our academic resources.</p>

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<p>fiveacres: my advice for your child is to be very, very good at one thing. </p>

<p>as far as targeting which colleges you want and then working toward those, I’m not a big fan of that. I’d spend your energy helping your child pursue his or her passion, which sounds like music, cool!</p>

<p>My daughter did one thing exceptionally well, a sport. And almost everyone (Y,P,S, Columbia, Duke, Brown, northW, Cal, USC, UCLA, UVA, etc, etc) came to her. The school she selected did however dictate senior classes, 3 APs, 2 honors, including AP AB calc and AP French.</p>

<p>Be good at one thing! Very good! Which I believe only comes from following your passion.</p>

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<p>Athletes are recruited, not musicians. OP’s son will never have those schools knocking at his door no matter how good he is at playing piano.</p>

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<p>It does look like the student in question is very or exceptionally good and motivated in two things: math and music.</p>

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<p>oldfort, correct athletes are recruited. but to be a recruited athlete you have to standout. And top schools are looking for standouts! And there are more than a few prodigies at HYPS.</p>

<p>I think musicians, public speakers, science fair winners, etc should be recruited! in a sense they are, 2 national champion public speakers from our high school went to Stanford, and the best musician went to Yale. admissions recruited them!</p>

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<p>You can’t compare performing arts prodigy to semi-good athletes. Those top tier schools have allocated slots for athletes of each sport (how many different sports do those schools have?), can’t say the same for musicians, dancers, artists…Semi-good athletes only need to meet minimum academic standards in order to be admitted, for performing arts students, it is only a hook. I agree with you that they should be recruited, but they are not.</p>