Chances at KCL, UCL, York for law?

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>Hi, so I'm an international student (American living in the UAE) applying for law at KCL, UCL and York. I'd love to hear what anyone familiar with these schools has to say. I was rejected at LSE - not surprising, but they cited my low predicted grades as the cause (which I'm kicking myself about).</p>

<p>Stats:
SAT: Only took it once, and got a 2070 - 640 math, 680 writing, 750 CR
SAT II: 730 Lit
GPA: 3.67 unweighted
Rank: no ranking at my school.
Other Tests (AMC, AP, IB): 5s in AP Lang and Euro, 4 in Statistics [side note: they don't offer APs until junior and senior year where I go, so...]
Ethnicity: Asianish? More South Asian.
Gender: Female
Predicted Grades: To be honest, I kind of shot myself in the foot with these (stupid, I know) because at the time I gave them - since I'm in an American school, I had to give estimates of my own predicteds - I thought I wouldn't do too well in Economics. Now that a few months have passed, I realise I shouldn't have underestimated myself, but... 5 in AP Psychology, US History, and Literature and 4 in Macro-econ and Micro-econ.
LNAT: Pending.</p>

<p>Other:
What I mentioned in my PS: Editor in chief of my school newspaper, president of Model United Nations (I've been to conferences in Amman, Beijing, and Istanbul), went on Habitat for Humanity in Mozambique, political activist for the Libertarian party, acting experience, was an intern at a law firm for a summer, nominated and won my school's award for AP Lang and Comp - writing is a huge passion of mine.
My PS as a whole was pretty good.</p>

<p>Also, my reference should be really amazing - it's written by one of my favourite teachers who really knows me well.</p>

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<p>UCL law is extremely competitive. They require at least five APs (5,5,5,5,4) - if you don’t meet this minimum requirement then you have no chance. In my opinion your APs aren’t good enough and your subject choices aren’t great either. Your personal statement sounds truly abysmal, whoever advised you to write down all that crap is an idiot. They really won’t care that you were the editor of your school newspaper or the president of MUN (or where you’ve been). They will care even less about your acting experience, fake charity work or winning a school writing competition. The only relevant thing you mentioned is the internship at a law firm, but even that should only be mentioned in passing. All in all, I would be very surprised if you got into UCL.</p>

<p>KCL is likewise a long short. York might take you but if your PS is as bad as you’ve made it sound… don’t hold your breath.</p>

3

<p>With all due respect, you sound a bit pompous.</p>

<p>I’m well aware UCL is extremely competitive, but in all fairness I meet their requirements: I have four 5s in legitimate subjects (being US History, European History, English Literature, and English Language, as well as a further 5 in Psychology) and three 4s (Statistics, Macro-economics, and Micro-economics).</p>

<p>King’s requires three subjects at 5 (which I have exceeded by a long-shot), and an 1800+ SAT, which I also have exceeded.</p>

<p>On top of all of this, I also obtained a 730 in a Literature SAT II.</p>

<p>The AP program only offers these subjects in the humanities (at least at my school), so any other subjects would be irrelevant, unless you deem AP Chemistry or Calculus to be of tantamount relevance to law.</p>

<p>I think I have fairly decent chances.</p>

<p>A note about my PS: Obviously it is not entirely about my extra-curriculars. I’m not that uninformed. Most of these were mentioned in one paragraph out of six, which I used to convey the fact that I have varied interests outside of the classroom that may help me in law. The other 90% of it talked about how my interest in politics sparked my interest in law, how I admired law for its fairness, why the classes I took prepared me for law, and how I intend to use my law degree in the future.</p>

<p>I had my interview with York and it went quite well, actually. I made the interviewer smile and I showed I had serious dedication and logical reasoning.</p>

<p>Have a wonderful day.</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way - in regards to my “fake charity work” - I really did spend time in Mozambique with Habitat for Humanity building houses. And I did it of my own accord and initiative. Thanks.</p>

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<p>You asked what your chances are and I gave you my honest opinion. </p>

<p>The trouble with your APs is it looks like you have only studied two subjects (history and English). I realise in the American system Euro/American history are different but UCL may decide to treat them as just one AP, same for English. Many successful Law applicants have science qualifications, if you could have taken chem. or calc (and passed well) then I think you should have.</p>

<p>Your ECs don’t help you in law, that is the point. Your PS still doesn’t sound great to me and I still don’t think you ill get in. Sorry about that.</p>

<p>I called your charity work fake because well, it is. I don’t mean you didn’t go there - I am sure you did, but it isn’t real charity work. Spending money going out to an obscure African country to build/paint houses does not make you look good.</p>

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<p>Fair enough, I do recognize that UCL is a top-tier school and that very few are accepted. However, I did go visit over the summer and was told there that each subject does count as its own, as they’re different courses with different examinations. </p>

<p>I did have someone who was accepted at LSE for law read over my personal statement and they told me it was excellent. However, they might be wrong. </p>

<p>I don’t expect I would’ve done well in the sciences, but I can’t really be assured of that since my school actively discouraged me from taking more than four APs in a single year. Perhaps I should have taken an AP language, however. </p>

<p>Well, being president of Model United Nations certainly doesn’t hurt someone who wants to pursue international law, like myself, so I did emphasize that. The award I won for writing was for an argumentative piece, which I also found to be relevant. Perhaps a few of the other choices were a bit superfluous, I can concede. </p>

<p>As for my charity work’s legitimacy, that is your opinion, and you very well may be correct, but I find it’s better to do something to help others than nothing at all. </p>

<p>But I do appreciate the honesty of your opinion - you’re probably more familiar with this process than I am, clearly, and I applied having no expectations at all.</p>

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<p>I think Nordicblue is being unreasonably harsh. He’s saying a lot without backing it up. </p>

<p>Your four 5s in AP are great: they are in “group A” subjects, meaning they are considered FULL APs. However, macroeconomics and microeconomics combined are considered one full AP. Your choice of subjects will not hurt at all, the UCL Law School website clearly states that all subjects are considered the same (except some wishy-washy subjects like music/art which you do not have). [Advanced</a> Placement Programme - US & Canada | UCAS](<a href=“http://www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/explore-your-options/entry-requirements/tariff-tables/app]Advanced”>http://www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/explore-your-options/entry-requirements/tariff-tables/app)</p>

<p>It is very hard to hard to determine the quality of your personal statement by the information you have provided. You should have written about a few extracurriculars and expanded on how they relate to law. Your ECs don’t matter AT ALL, unless you connected them to law. For instance, you could have talked about walking your dog and related it to law and it would have been perfect. </p>

<p>Your charity work is definitely not fake. Universities greatly value international work experience – I know people admitted to law and medicine after doing this sort of work.</p>

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<p>I am not being unreasonable. I went to UCL (did you, MeISHM?) so I am giving a realistic opinion. UCL law is a very small dept and they will only take the best. They place much greater emphasis on the PS than LSE do for example which is why (based on the PS info the OP supplied) I think it unlikely the OP will get an offer. Universities value work experience, but going to Africa to build houses is not work experience. They would be much more impressed had the OP volunteered at a soup kitchen or a citizens advice bureau.</p>

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<p>Wrt to the charity issue: I live in Dubai, where doing work for migrant workers and the urban poor is actively frowned upon by the government as bad publicity, ergo I took advantage of the only real option I had. It makes sense that soup kitchen work or volunteering at a citizens advice bureau is more desirable, but it’s just not feasible where I currently am.</p>

<p>Thanks, MeIsHM, for explaining the whole Group A/Group B AP subjects classification to me - I was a little unclear, but I’ve since researched it.</p>

<p>It’s relatively difficult to assess my PS without me posting it, but I wasn’t really concerned about it until now… I suppose it’s up to the adcom at this point to see if it’s good enough.</p>

<p>And also, wow, I had no idea UCL only took 140 students per year - that’s pretty frightening. But like I said, I had very little expectations upon applying… these schools are excellent for a reason. Maybe being a full-pay international student will help, but I doubt it.</p>

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<p>You could post it in the student room’s personal statement advice forum, it is private and the only people who can read it are vetted and trustworthy. They might be able to give you a better indication of whether it is any good, but as you have already applied there might not be much point. Good luck and I hope I didn’t come across as being too negative.</p>

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<p>Nordicblue, studying at a particular university does not validate your points. Your point about the UCL treating all his APs as “as just one AP” was ridiculous, and shows you have no knowledge about the admissions process. </p>

<p>The UCL is very clear that extracurriculars are not a criterion for admission. They are ONLY to determine an applicant’s interest in a particular subject. The UCL couldn’t care less what ECs OP has engaged in; it is more interested in finding out how his ECs strengthened his (academic and non-academic) skills needed for law. </p>

<p>Also, being a full paying international student does not help because of the law course being heavily oversubscribed.</p>

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<p>Right, so you don’t think my knowing UCL law students is relevant? I do, because unlike you I know the academic and extracurricular backgrounds of many law students at UCL and so I am in a better position to talk about the type of students they take and the sort of offer conditions the OP can expect. I didn’t say they would treat all his APs as one, I said they might choose to consider two separate history APs as one, and it is true - they very well may do this. They’ve done it before. I couldn’t give a toss what you think about me or my understanding of the admissions process to be perfectly honest.</p>

<p>ECs are important for UCL law actually so I don’t know why you’re dismissing them totally. I just don’t think the OP has the right sort of ECs.</p>

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<p>Hi MeIsHM,
I have some questions regarding group A&B APs…
Will a UK university completely disregard group B subjects or they will consider 2 group B subjects as equivalent to 1 group A subject?</p>

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<p>Nordicblue, I don’t want to start a stupid argument. We need to agree to disagree. Whilst your advice may be useful, it is purely anecdotal. They will not consider two of his history courses as one – that would be in violation of their own policy of treating all ‘group A’ APs separately. With regards to ECs, you – and any other international applicant – should watch this video by the ICL: [How</a> to write an excellent personal statement - YouTube](<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube)</p>

<p>Three263W, policies vary by university. Most competitive universities do not consider ‘group B’ APs at all – a notable exception is macro- and microeconomics, which count as one full AP combined at some universities. You should check each of your prospective universities’ website to make sure.</p>

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<p>MeIsHM, many universites I am applying to do not specify which category of AP they will be considering. Can I therefore assume that they will also consider all category B APs as?</p>

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<p>I think this video is going to be more useful: [LAW</a> Olga Thomas - YouTube](<a href=“UCL - Law undergraduate subject overview - YouTube”>UCL - Law undergraduate subject overview - YouTube) – especially the part about the selection process. Whatever UCL have said about APs on their website is irrelevant, it is not set in stone and they have been known to treat similar AP (and A level) subjects as one.</p>

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<p>Three263W, if the universities do not specify, then I would assume they follow what the UCAS recommends. That is, ‘group B’ APs are worth half as much as ‘group A’ APs. But, I strongly urge you to contact your prospective universities to avoid disappointment later in the application process. </p>

<p>Nordicblue, I don’t understand where you’re coming from. You’re telling OP to ignore the UCL’s website and listen to an internet stranger because why would anyone lie on the internet!? The UCL will not change its entry requirements in the middle of an application cycle – the UCAS does not allow institutions to do this after mid-January.</p>

<p>Here is a list of subjects that applicants must have at least two of: [A</a> level Qualifications](<a href=“http://www.ucl.ac.uk/prospective-students/undergraduate-study/application-and-entry/alevel-qualifications/#p]A”>http://www.ucl.ac.uk/prospective-students/undergraduate-study/application-and-entry/alevel-qualifications/#p) . The UCL – and other universities – only treat two separate subjects as the same if they have a lot of overlap, e.g. economics and business studies; biology and human biology or sports science. Similar subjects, as long as they don’t have overlapping content are NOT considered the same subject, e.g classics and history; English literature and English language; maths and statistics.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say ignore it. Certainly take whatever UCL says on their website into account, but the OP should be aware that they can and do deviate from these guidelines. The departmental admissions tutors can do whatever they like, they may for example choose to disregard what UCAS and UCL itself say about APs and stipulate certain subjects in the offer conditions. The OP should be prepared for the possibility that UCL might treat US and Euro history as just 1 AP. They may not do this, I’m not going to try and second guess the admission tutor - but they have done it before.</p>

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<p>Three263w, assume that category B APs will be given less weight- read the description on the UCAS tariff system and you will get a better idea. The more related the B AP is to your subject the more likely it will be given some weight. For example, for a politics based course, APs in Comp Goc & US Gov will generally be accepted (together) as an A AP, even though it has fewer tariff points. We can probably be more helpful with more specifics, but as long as you have something like the tariff points that a typical UK student would be expected to have, and the subjects (if any) required for the course you will generally be ok ( not counting the hyper competitive unis, of course)</p>

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<p>Ah, well, I’ll find out for sure in good time. I hope I’ll get an offer from at least one of them, but we’ll see.</p>

<p>I suppose they’re just waiting to receive my LNAT results, now.</p>

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<p>Update - accepted at York :slight_smile: </p>

<p>Nothing else has come in yet.</p>