<p>I will post a rebuttal a little later.</p>
<p>There is one influential disparity between underpriviledged blacks and whites when it comes to college: Black people receive the benefits of AA, while white people do not. Colleges will help a black person when their SAT's are low and are underpriviledged, but they will not aid a white person for the same reasons. This is because of Affirmative Action. Why can't colleges use AA on an economic basis, then any person of underpriviledged background, regardless of race, could receive a much-needed "leg-up" when applying to colleges? You say that disadvantaged kids, black or white, are like the ones with bad eyesight. AA DOES not help white people, even if they are underpriviledged.</p>
<p>Financial Aid and Waivers are absolutely irrelevant to this matter. Race, not money, is the deciding factor in AA. Therefore, Blacks and other URM's exclusively use AA to their advantage, while the underpriviledged white kid cannot reap its benefits.</p>
<p>Black people often complain, though, that they're actions and well-being is being thwarted by "the white man." If we are going to provide black people with a "leg up" in the admissions process, why not help out the poor white kids? I'd totally agree with affirmative action if it was based on wealth status, rather than race, because, that way, everyone who was underpriviledged could be helped. </p>
<p>My perspective of AA is from a student's vantage point. The fact that Ivy League schools desire a certain amount of diversity is morally reprehensible. How can we deny a bright, white person the opportunities of a great education and give that great education to a person who is undeserving? </p>
<p>Education is all about desire and motivation. Just because a black person does not have educated parents doesn't mean that they will be doomed to a life of poverty. Black people need to recognize that the only way they will succeed is by staying in school. Blacks tend to think that the whole world is against them i.e. Kanye West: "GWB doesn't care about black people." If they were to get off their asses and get a job or work hard in school, they could reverse this negative stereotype and become independent. </p>
<p>Yes, diversity is important but it shouldn't be a deciding factor in college admissions. College is a priviledge, not for the wealthy exclusively, but for the kids, regardless of race, who work hard. White teenagers who spend their entire life working hard so that they can attend a prestegious college are denied so that a lazy black person who never went to class or never studied could "add diversity." To me, this is wrong.</p>
<p>"There is one influential disparity between underpriviledged blacks and whites when it comes to college: Black people receive the benefits of AA, while white people do not."</p>
<p>We help white people in other ways if they need it. So it's not a question of helping only the black people. The black people get help from AA because they add diversity to college campuses and some people feel that that is important. If you don't, that's fine. I don't think an internet forum will change your values system, I'm just stating the fact. If colleges want to "let in someone for the sake of diversity," they can. And it's not like they're letting in a lazy person who happens to be black. They understand that black people have to work harder in society to get to the same place as white people.</p>
<p>"Colleges will help a black person when their SAT's are low and are underpriviledged, but they will not aid a white person for the same reasons. This is because of Affirmative Action. Why can't colleges use AA on an economic basis, then any person of underpriviledged background, regardless of race, could receive a much-needed "leg-up" when applying to colleges?"</p>
<p>AA on an economic basis already exists. It is called financial aid and need-blind admissions. So the problems facing white underprivileged people are addressed through simple race-blind $ aid. The further problems uniquely faced by minorities like blacks are addressed through AA. Do you think blacks and whites are completely equal in today's society? Really ask yourself. Is racism or at least racial stereotyping completely gone? Really? Doubt it. And also, AA isn't all about helping out the poor blacks. It goes back to the diversity question. Blacks are underrepresented on campuses, and when AdComs build college classes they weigh a lot of things: their academic standards, character standards, diversity standards, etc etc.</p>
<p>"You say that disadvantaged kids, black or white, are like the ones with bad eyesight. AA DOES not help white people, even if they are underpriviledged."</p>
<p>Yeah as I said financial aid helps white kids. White kids don't need help from racism, which is what AA deals with. (Read on.) Whites might need economic help and they can get it like any other people. But whites aren't underrepresented on college campuses. Is it because they innately are smarter or more hardworking? No, nobody believes that. Is it because blacks had and still have harder times finding jobs and being treated fairly? Yes. The same goes for Hispanics, etc etc. That means we should help them go to college just like we help people born into poverty. Diversity is thus only one factor. If you disagree with diversity then at least you can agree that we should help the disadavantaged.</p>
<p>"Financial Aid and Waivers are absolutely irrelevant to this matter. Race, not money, is the deciding factor in AA. Therefore, Blacks and other URM's exclusively use AA to their advantage, while the underpriviledged white kid cannot reap its benefits."</p>
<p>OK, kids born rich cannot reap the benefits of financial aid. Does that mean we should take away financial aid for kids born poor? Just admit that white kids are born into a society that favors them.</p>
<p>"My perspective of AA is from a student's vantage point. The fact that Ivy League schools desire a certain amount of diversity is morally reprehensible. How can we deny a bright, white person the opportunities of a great education and give that great education to a person who is undeserving?"</p>
<p>Again, did you see what I wrote about the kid who got a 1900 on the SAT and was born into a poor black family? They don't get much sympathy from most people. "Oh them, they just live off welfare, our taxes, just because they're black. Let them help themselves." So then we take away our help and we stereotype them. It's a cycle--they are viewed negatively by society (as lazy) so they don't move up as easily in society. They don't get much help. Then they stay in relative poverty. Then we say it's just because they're lazy. And instead of helping them into a situation in which they don't need our help anymore, we just label them as lazy ingrates who take away our kids' spots.</p>
<p>"Education is all about desire and motivation. Just because a black person does not have educated parents doesn't mean that they will be doomed to a life of poverty. Black people need to recognize that the only way they will succeed is by staying in school. Blacks tend to think that the whole world is against them...."</p>
<p>So you're saying that a kid with middle-class, educated parents, a computer at home, goes to a safe neighborhood school, can afford summer classes and whatnot...That this person should be viewed EXACTLY the same as a black kid whose parents are discriminated against regularly in the workplace and elsewhere? There IS a difference. Trust me, I'm Asian, and my parents aren't exactly kind to black people. We have black neighbors (they live on a 1.5 acre plot with a 4000+sqft home, drive a Mercedes, not poor) and my Mom still says to me, "Don't trick or treat at their house please." It's racist, and you can't ignore the fact that such attitudes aren't rare.</p>
<p>"College is a priviledge, not for the wealthy exclusively, but for the kids, regardless of race, who work hard. White teenagers who spend their entire life working hard so that they can attend a prestegious college are denied so that a lazy black person who never went to class or never studied could "add diversity.""</p>
<p>Um, no one said anything about letting in a lazy black person with a 0.1 GPA and a 400 SAT who never worked a job in his/her life. What I did say was that special consideration should be given to a person's ethnic and economic background. And unfortunately in our society, $ and race are linked.</p>
<p>So Basically, prove to me that racism doesn't exist or that diversity doesn't matter and you've proven to me that we don't need to use AA. </p>
<p>PS I may sound combative but, again, nothing personal! This is purely intellectual. I'm like a rich Asian kid...</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback guys...I guess I'm at the mercy of everything else in the application...</p>
<p>Henrym288:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I have every right to apply to whatever school I want. Chill for a sec, will ya?</p></li>
<li><p>I am not the biggest fan of AA myself. I don't want to walk around campus with my peers thinking that my race and my race ALONE was the only reason for me being accepted. With that said...</p></li>
</ol>
<p>...I haven't heard a single solution from anyone else...and if there was a solution mentioned, either here in CC or even in Washington and the white house, it clearly is not even close to being implimented. If AA has to be removed, then legacies, VIPs, athletic and all that stuff MUST GO AS WELL. Its as simple as that.</p>
<p>Its rather strange...I see a bunch of folks here and elsewhere complain about AA...and they have some good points here and there. Yet, they ignore the other categories...really, you can't have it both ways, man.</p>
<p>Now, you've stated that the Ivies desire for diversity--or a certain amount as you say it--is "morally reprehensible." College is supposed to be somewhat of a reflection of the real world that we'll are about to enter (or entered already). If AA, and AA ALONE, was to be banned...you would've had an extremely homogenous environment in your campus. </p>
<p>In any case, lets not act as if blacks and other URMs are taking over schools. No even close...the last time I remeber, URMs barely make about 20%-30% of the student body.</p>
<p>Your rants epitomize exactly what I'm talking about. You sympathize with black people, thereby making them dependent on your help. Leave them alone, let them fend for themselves, and then they will gain the respect and education they deserve. If we continue to support them via government programs e.g. welfare, AA, etc, we only perpetuate their struggle against adversity and lack of autonomy in society. It is because of people like you that they are perceived as helpless individuals who need direct aid from the government in order to lead semi-successful lives.</p>
<p>stk2k, trust me, this is enjoyable for me. I am in no way annoyed by this.</p>
<p>Lack of autonomy in society? Again, all these things you're saying about making people dependent by helping them...they link just as well to helping out poor white kids with financial aid. Kids born into poverty, kids born into a skin that people inherently disparage...big difference?</p>
<p>^^^^^^</p>
<p>C'mon Henry. I know this is the 21 century...but you are acting as if blacks had the same amount of opportunities from the very beginning. Its one thing to say that Blacks must be left alone and take care of themselves, without any help whatsoever, IF previous generations of blacks started of the same foot as previous generations of whites.</p>
<p>You mentioned that AA must be more about the poor. Fact is, Blacks and other URMs make up the majority of the poor in this country. Thus, they simply do no receive as many opportunities as (the majority of) whites.</p>
<p>hey stk2k2...lemme handle this shiat!</p>
<p>not that you can't...but i'm enjoying beating henry's a** and his not responding at all to what i'm actually saying........</p>
<p>Hey, its my thread... I have the right to have a say about this :)</p>
<p>Now that I think about it....Has there been ANYONE in CC who made it to any Ivy w/ my stats? I would be suprised...</p>
<p>Back to the original point of this thread. This "chances" thread is what ignited my anger intially. This black male abuses AA, plain and simple. He knows that, if it were'nt for his race, he would never have a chance at schools of that caliber. He believes that his race can eradicate a dismal high school career. </p>
<p>This is what really angers me about AA. If you're going to abuse the system, atleast admit it! Do not pretend that, without your URM status, you have the ability to be admitted to a great school.</p>
<p>This is a chances post and not an affirmative action thread. Get over yourselves.</p>
<p>Well...</p>
<p>Define dismal, Henry.... Not getting a 4.99999999999 GPA and not getting at least a 1590 on the SAT I and perfect 800s on the SAT IIs is dismal?</p>
<p>See, the main problem I see in CC is their obssesion with numbers. Its becoming alarming. Seriously, I see folks in here getting clowned simply because they have a 2100 (not the best score, but darn good by its own merit)...How about you focus more about how you display yourself as a person in your applications? That would help significantly.</p>
<p>I'll give two examples of such...</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Last years valedictorian, to make a long story short, was an academic powerhouse. 5's in all of his APs. Straight As. Near perfect SATs. Numbers alone would've practically guarenteed him admission...Yet, instead of going to his dream school Rice (he wasn't interested in UT) he ended up in the university of Houston. Why? Because of everything else. He never goes out. His daily schedule involves going to school, going home, do homework, play video games, sleep...and the cycle continued. He only had two extra curriculars (UIL competitions, in which he didn't even advance to region) and something else, I do not remember. Basically, although he was smart...he was a plunger. How on earth would he contribute to life on Campus when 98% of the time he would lock himself and do work and NOTHING else? Really....</p></li>
<li><p>Many people in CC used several examples to prove AA's major flaw (White kid, black kid, white kid has slightly better stats, but black kid gets accepted). Yet, many only scratch the surface. What if the black kid had better extracurriculars? What if the white kid's recommendation wasn't as strong? what if the black kid's essay was unique, while the white kid's was rather cliched?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>In other words, there are WAY too many factors when getting to college, especially when we are talking about the Ivies. To think that race, and race alone will guarentee or deny admission is foolish. Focus on showing the best of you fellas, not what the other guy is doing...</p>
<p>Ahh....long post....sry:)</p>
<p>Yea....lets get back on topic guys......WHAT ARE MY CHANCES?</p>
<p>lol as a fellow URM, i think u have a shot</p>
<p>stk2k, that was the most incoherent dribble of words I've ever read in my life.</p>
<p>no it wasn't...it was actually rather meaningful.
sorry if it wasn't an organized group of poops.</p>
<p>hey, have you ever seen "Better Luck Tomorrow?"</p>
<p>Noooooooooooooooo another Affirmative Action discussion.</p>
<p>Give it a rest. This issue has been discussed to death. It's not going away in time for college admissions this year. Deal with it, and move on.</p>
<p>and Henrym288 is reminding me of desertman, does anyone else agree?</p>
<p>those scores aren't low for penn state</p>