Chances of Top 20 MBA program after work experience

Graduate School Business School - MBA
1

<p>I'm wondering if anybody has any knowledge or insight in regards to what business schools regard as the most important factor(s) in admissions and how my specific statistics would correlate to what they are looking for (specifically Tuck, Michigan, NYU, Chicago and Cornell).</p>

<p>My stats are as follows:</p>

<p>BA with Honours GPA 3.15 (in the first year of university I found it particularly hard to adjust thus resulted in abysmal grades)
ECs such as finance and investment club, volunteering, business club, and held an executive position for the entrepreneurship society
GMAT: 702 written only once
Work Experience: spent 2 years working for a major investment management company in Canada with assets in excess of 1billion USD. Also will be spending 2 years with Sony/BMG Music Entertainment under the direct supervision of senior executives.</p>

<p>If I decide to apply after 2 years with Sony will I have enough experience to be competitive? Will they discriminate via GPA even though my GMAT is superb? How big a role do the admissions essays and employer recommendations play? </p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

2

<p>How did you get a 702 GMAT? Do you mean 720? Your GPA isn't stellar but it's still above a 3.0. If you can explain any grade issues in your essays, you should be okay. I think that your work experience will be key. Essays are huge. Recommendations are important. From what I've heard, essays are most important, then gmat, then gpa, then recs.</p>

3

<p>Oops. You're right alicantekid, I've made a typo in my first post. That should be GMAT = 720 not 702. Thank you for your reply as well.
Also, I was wondering if there was anybody else, particularly sakky, Alexandre, mahras2, or any other senior members of this board with insider knowledge on business school admission that could offer some assistance, that would be much appreciated.</p>

4

<p>It's important to demonstrate that you are having a strong career arc, so you will need to talk about projects performed, promotions or promotion potential, extra revenue that you have earned for the company, leadership/management potential, and that sort of thing. </p>

<p>Generally, grades and GMAT are of only minor importance. I would actually list the order of importance, from most to least, as interview, essays, rec's, GMAT, and GPA.</p>

5

<p>"Generally, grades and GMAT are of only minor importance. I would actually list the order of importance, from most to least, as interview, essays, rec's, GMAT, and GPA"</p>

<p>Why did you put GPA and GMAT last???Not true,generally, work experience ,GPA and GMAT,are the three MOST important.GMAT and GPA is more relevant than inverviews and essays. Colleges want students that can pass and do well. Saying a lot of nice things during a interview will not demonstrate your ability to pass the course work.If your in a advanced Finance class the university wants people that can do well and pass,a interview will give them little indication of wheither you will pass on not. Having a high Gmat and Gpa will,that is why all schools require them, and don't require interviews....Work experience is the third and necessary final component.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
Why did you put GPA and GMAT last???Not true,generally, work experience ,GPA and GMAT,are the three MOST important.GMAT and GPA is more relevant than inverviews and essays. Colleges want students that can pass and do well. Saying a lot of nice things during a interview will not demonstrate your ability to pass the course work.If your in a advanced Finance class the university wants people that can do well and pass,a interview will give them little indication of wheither you will pass on not. Having a high Gmat and Gpa will,that is why all schools require them, and don't require interviews....Work experience is the third and necessary final component.

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</p>

<p>GPA and GMAT are last because that's exactly where they belong. And I think most elite B-schools will confirm this. </p>

<p>Interviews and essays are ways in which to validate the quality of your work experience, therefore I consider them all part and parcel with experience. </p>

<p>I think you are gravely misunderstanding the situation involved here. I am not talking about college admissions. I am talking about B-school admissions. You talk about people not being able to pass Advanced Finance and not passing. Well look, the truth is, nobody ever flunks out of an elite B-school. You basically have to just choose not to do the work in order to flunk out. As long as you put in some minimum level of work, you're going to pass. You won't get the highest grade in the class, but you will at least pass. And the truth is, grades don't matter very much when you're in B-school anyway. That is why so many B-schools like Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton do not disclose grades to employers. </p>

<p>I know a guy in the MBA program at Wharton who flunked one of his finance classes, because he basically never showed up and never did anything (because he was spending all his time interviewing). He was actually laughing about it. He could afford to do that because he knew that the Wharton grade nondisclosure policy meant that nobody would ever know. Kind of puts a damper on the notion that these B-schools really care about getting people who will do well in their classes. If that was true, then why implement grade nondisclosure?</p>

<p>Finally, I have NEVER heard of an elite B-school that required a high GMAT and GPA but didn't require an interview. Let me put it to you this way. I know a guy who got into Harvard Business School and MITSloan with a GPA that was certainly not higher than a 3.0, and could have been as low as a 2.5, and only got maybe somewhere in the 500's on the GMAT. But his work experience and leadership skills were absolutely indisputable. He was a military officer for many years, most recently as a decorated officer in the Special Forces. Certainly nobody could dispute his leadership skills. And yes, he had excellent interview skills. All that made his relatively mediocre grades and GMAT scores irrelevant. Who cares if he wasn't an academic star? This is clearly a highly skilled and accomplished leader who knows how to get things done.</p>

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<p>500's on the GMAT and got into Harvard and MIT? Flunked a finance class? We'll I'm sure the B-School wouldn't mind if he flunks out of their school.</p>

8

<p>get some work experience, then you'll realized how irrelevant GPA and GMAT become. well, not irrelevant, but they don't mean as much as they used to when you were still in school and all that mattered were grades and scores. </p>

<p>business is a different beast; you don't necessarily need to be academically successful to succeed in the business field really.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
500's on the GMAT and got into Harvard and MIT? Flunked a finance class?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First off, these are 2 different guys I'm talking about here.</p>

<p>But as to your larger point, like I said, B-schools aren't "real" schools. Let's face it. Whether you think it's right or wrong, B-schools are basically just 2-year social clubs. Many if not most students devote the majority of their time not to classwork, but to networking and getting a job. I'd certainly be willing to get a bunch of bad grades, or even flunk a few courses, if it meant getting the job offer that I wanted. </p>

<p>Consider the following quotes:</p>

<p>"[Wharton 2nd year MBA ] B-school life consists of doing some quality work and endless partying. No more worrying about the next job interview, and no more stressing out over the next case due for finance class. This is the life that an MBA student should live for. Whenever you walk into the Wharton MBA pub, there are numerous friends waiting to tell you how much they are trying to do the minimum possible and how much more sleep they are getting."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/mbajournal/99yi/10.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/mbajournal/99yi/10.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Crainer and Dearlove (1999), in their critical overview of business education, described the "Wharton Walk"--a drinking ritual in which the students at the University of Pennsylvania business school visit 10 bars in one night. They concluded, "This is what happens in business schools. Most students simply get drunk. MBA students bond and network" "</p>

<p>"... neither grades in business school nor completion of the program may provide much evidence of learning. Grade inflation is pervasive in American higher education, and business schools are no exception (Kuh & Shouping, 1999; Muuka, 1998; Redding, 1998). As a consequence, almost no one fails out of MBA programs, which means the credential does not serve as a screen or an enforcement of minimum competency standards. If the MBA degree doesn't really distinguish among people then it is no surprise that it doesn't have much effect on career outcomes. As Armstrong, a professor who has taught MBAs for more than 30 years, observed:</p>

<p>In today's prestigious business schools, students have to demonstrate competence to get in, but not to get out. Every student who wants to (and who avoids financial and emotional distress) will graduate. At Wharton, for example, less than one percent of the students fail any given course, on average .... the probability of failing more than one course is almost zero. In effect, business schools have developed elaborate and expensive grading systems to ensure that even the least competent and least interested get credit "</p>

<p>"...as already noted, few sanctions are actually administered for poor performance in classes. Moreover, although schools can offer various forms of recognition for academic achievement, in the business schools, unlike law schools, where class standing has a real effect on job prospects, there is little evidence that course grades or class standing, even when available, are given much weight by employers in their applicant screening. "</p>

<p><a href="http://www.aomonline.org/Publications/Articles/BSchools.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aomonline.org/Publications/Articles/BSchools.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

10

<p>"I know a guy in the MBA program at Wharton who flunked one of his finance classes, because he basically never showed up and never did anything (because he was spending all his time interviewing). He was actually laughing about it. He could afford to do that because he knew that the Wharton grade nondisclosure policy meant that nobody would ever know. Kind of puts a damper on the notion that these B-schools really care about getting people who will do well in their classes. If that was true, then why implement grade nondisclosure?"</p>

<p>I do not doubt that , I thought the top employers recruit at prestigious MBA programs because they are looking for the best and the brightest.Why would top firms recruit there knowing that potenially the future hire would make descisons effecting HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars if they know they are hiring a bunch a people that basically socialized for two years. Would you want your friend that almost failed Finance to handle the company? Doesn't make much sense. Thanks</p>

11

<p>Well, first off, we have to define what we mean by 'best and the brightest'. What exactly does that mean? The truth is, the 'best and the brightest' often times does not mean the best from a purely academic standpoint, but rather somebody who is decently smart, but also highly social and has strong soft skills.</p>

<p>Let me put it to you this way. If firms were really out to hire the truly most academically intelligent, then why not simply hire purely on grades and test scores? Why even have an interview at all? Just automatically hand the guy who has straight A's and perfect test scores the job without bothering to interview him. After all, he is clearly academically brilliant, so why do you need to interview him at all? Let's not waste time and just hand him the job. </p>

<p>Or consider this. Take MIT. I think most MBA students at MIT will concede that they are not as academically intelligent as, say, the MIT doctoral students in managmeent, engineering, science, economics, etc. So why should companies even bother hiring the MIT MBA's? Why don't these companies just go hiring newly minted MIT PhD's instead? The same thing is true at virtually every business school. I think Harvard MBA students would concede that they are not as intelligent as Harvard doctoral students. Stanford MBA students would concede they are not as intelligent as Stanford PhD students. If firms were really out to hire only academic brilliance, why bother hiring any MBA's at all when there are all these PhD's they could hire?</p>

<p>Look, the fact is, when companies say they want the best and the brightest, they don't really mean the best from an academic standpoint. I have seen plenty of people with stellar grades nevertheless get rejected by companies in favor of people with quite modest academics, but better social and soft skills. Companies are not all that interested in hiring true brilliance, they are interested in hiring people who are able to schmooze and network and get things done from a social standpoint.</p>

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<p>Sakky, I didn't know that BS did not disclose grades to employers. That's an awesome fact, wow! So then what is the basis of BS? What exactly are professors teaching? Are there any outside projects involved in BS? Tell me please.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, I didn't know that BS did not disclose grades to employers. That's an awesome fact, wow! So then what is the basis of BS? What exactly are professors teaching? Are there any outside projects involved in BS? Tell me please.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think they have courses that teach business basics, things you would have probably learned with an undergrad business degree. Certain schools tend to cater towards different specialties though, like Harvard and UVA revolve around case studies and tend to lean more towards management type jobs while Wharton leans more towards finance. They have a bunch of books out there that actually chronicle the experiences of people in business school, I know Harvard for example has one. You should check those out if you're interested in learning more.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, I didn't know that BS did not disclose grades to employers. That's an awesome fact, wow! So then what is the basis of BS? What exactly are professors teaching? Are there any outside projects involved in BS? Tell me please.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No no no. It's the MBA program that doesn't disclose grades. The undergrad program DOES disclose grades. </p>

<p>In fact, this sort of thing has become a matter of controversy at Wharton. Some Wharton electives are taken by both undergrads and MBA students and Wharton profs have expressed dismay that the undergrads tend to be more motivated and get better grades in those classes than the MBA students do, precisely because they know that they grades will be disclosed whereas the MBA students know that their grades won't be. </p>

<p>"...at University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, where students, faculty, and administrators have locked horns over a school-initiated proposal that would effectively end a decade of grade secrecy at BusinessWeek's No. 3-ranked B-school. It wouldn't undo disclosure rules but would recognize the top 25% of each class -- in effect outing everyone else. It was motivated, says Vice-Dean Anjani Jain in a recent Wharton Journal article, by the "disincentivizing effects" of grade nondisclosure, which he says faculty blame for lackluster academic performance and student disengagement.</p>

<p>Just how contentious are things at Wharton? In cross-listed classes, Jain wrote, undergrads outperform MBAs, and the gap is widening. Annual student surveys, he wrote, show that the amount of time students spend on academics has fallen by 22% in just four years. Some of Wharton's best faculty have stopped teaching MBA classes altogether, he added. And those who continue now go to great lengths to keep students in check. Many prohibit late arrivals, talking, and cell phones. Others take attendance, as Harvard Business School does, or give weekly quizzes to make sure students show up for class. "Just like with traffic," says Edward I. George, a Wharton statistics professor. "You need traffic lights to function properly."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_37/b3950064_mz056.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_37/b3950064_mz056.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look, I hapen to think that Wharton (and the other top B-schools like Harvard, Stanford) that implement MBA grade nondisclosure are wrong, and that they should start disclosing grades. But hey, what can I say. As of now, despite the controversy, they still haven't changed their policy.</p>

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<p>sakky could one of the reasons is that top business schools don’t look at GPA so strongly is that they usually look for usually 5-6 years of work experience prior to admission? In that sense it’s unlike law or med school where most people go in directly after there undergrad. Doesn’t that time difference make it less relevant? (Just a thought)</p>

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<p>Im of course mentioning this as one of the contributing factors as well in addition.</p>

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<p>Shadowguy, I suppose you could say that. </p>

<p>However, I would point out that even in those rare cases of students getting admitted with very limited experience, GPA STILL doesn't seem to matter very much. Again, what seems to matter is your personal qualities, not your GPA. </p>

<p>The truth is, a lot of academically brilliant people are just not cut out for management. Surely we've all seen that. Just because you're a smart guy doesn't mean that you have the ability to lead people. There's a big difference between knowing what the right answer is and having the ability to convince other people of what the right answer is. In fact, of the great business leaders throughout American history, seldom will you find that they were academic giants. They obviously weren't stupid people, but they usually weren't academic superstars either.</p>

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<p>How low of a GPA are we talking about here when we say low? Are we talking about extreme examples here?(2.5,2.8,3.1) From using usnews as my source you need around a 3.5 because thats the average gpa for a lot of these schools. Please prove me wrong.
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/mba/brief/mbarank_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/mba/brief/mbarank_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Hey I have question.
How much work experience do u need to have (like how many years?) to be competitive enough when applying to the top-10 B-schools?</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
How low of a GPA are we talking about here when we say low? Are we talking about extreme examples here?(2.5,2.8,3.1) From using usnews as my source you need around a 3.5 because thats the average gpa for a lot of these schools. Please prove me wrong.
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/gr...arank_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/gr...arank_brief.php&lt;/a>

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</p>

<p>A "lot" of these schools? Look again. Or, better yet, buy the USNews premium edition, or read it in your library. You will notice that there are only 4 MBA programs that have an average GPA of higher than a 3.5. Harvard is 3.6, Stanford is 3.5, Penn Wharton is 3.53., and (strangely) UCLA is 3.59. All the rest are lower than a 3.5, some by a substantial amount. Heck, Cornell Johnson, which is ranked #15, has an average GPA of only a 3.26, and Virginia Darden, which is ranked #14, has only a 3.3 ave GPA. Heck, MIT Sloan, which is ranked #4, has only a 3.4 ave GPA. </p>

<p>Yet that doesn't really make these schools unselective. MIT Sloan, for example, only admits about 21% of its applicants. That's a lower percentage (25%) than the MIT School of Engineering admits for its graduate programs. Harvard Business School admits about 14.5% of its applicants, which is comparable to the 11% that get admitted to Harvard Law. </p>

<p>True, admissions percentages don't tell you everything, but they can serve as a useful indicator. The truth is, every business school could easily boost their average incoming GPA if they really wanted to. They could just adopt a more highly-numbers oriented admissions process that the law schools and med-schools use. I know quite a few people with near perfect GPA's and stellar GMAT scores that nonetheless couldn't get into any top B-school because they lacked good work experience. If the B-schools were interesting in boosting their incoming GPA, they would admit these people. </p>

<p>I'll give you another example about MIT. MIT, unlike Stanford or Harvard or Penn, is highly centralized in the sense that any MIT student from any department can elect to sign up for Sloan classes, space permitting, without having to undergo a cross-reg procedure or other such bureaucratic hassle. Hence, a lot of non-Sloan MIT graduate students will sign up for Sloan MBA elective classes. And in fact, many of these students find that they like the Sloan classes so much that upon finishing their SM or their PhD degree, they decide to apply to become Sloan MBA students. Obviously these students can present stellar undergraduate academic records to Sloan - stellar enough to have already gotten them into a science/engineering graduate program at MIT. Nevertheless, Sloan rejects almost all of them. In fact, I've known a number of people who were brilliant MIT graduate students, writing award-winning MIT doctoral theses, who then applied to Sloan and got rejected. Why? Simple. No real-world work experience. Being a brilliant academic doesn't mean that you're going to be a good manager.</p>