Hey guys,
I am hoping to apply for law school this coming year. I graduated graduated summa cum laude from Amherst College this past December, with a triple-major in French, History, and Asian Languages and Civilizations (concentration in Middle East Studies). GPA is 3.94, if you count A+s (which the LSAC does, thankfully). I have not yet taken the LSAT but have been scoring in the 170+ range on practice tests. Not sure if this will make a difference, but I studied abroad at the Sorbonne in Paris (GPA 3.91) and at the American University of Beirut (GPA 4.00). I am fluent in French and have advanced proficiency in Arabic (also know some Persian). Should I play up the language background? Also, I am in the process of turning my honors thesis into journal articles for publication and will be credited in an article whose publication is forthcoming. In addition, I interned at the Congressional Research Service (Congress’ in-house think-tank), in Middle East affairs, during which time I wrote a CRS report on Hezbollah. Does any of this background stuff matter or are GPA and LSAT the only (or rather only significant) factors? Oh, I should mention that I plan to pursue international law, which, I suppose, might be a bit obvious from my background and majors.
I would appreciate any input you could give me. I am not super focused on getting into Harvard Law, say, but I would like to get into a top14 law school, that way I get some ROI. Georgetown is attractive because of its location in D.C., but the dual JD/MA in IR degrees offered by Harvard and Yale in partnership with the Woodrow Wilson School are very attractive, too.
Sorry for the long post. (Also, I recognize that in absence of an actual LSAT result it might be hard to chance me.)
M
I think you know the answer to your questions. IF you crack 170+ on LSAT, you will be sitting pretty. With those numbers, you will easily get near full ride at lower T14. Yeah, do a lower T14 with big scholarship, that is a ticket to financial and career success.
I’d pick any school within T14 over Georgetown. Georgetown has the worst biglaw placement compared to any school within T14, and its class size is huge. Better to go Northwestern, UVA, Duke, or Cornell.
Generally, I’d always recommend a lower T14 with big merit scholarship over payig sticker higher up. But, someone interested in international – yeah, I know its not a real thing – needs pedigree. (Prestige still carries a LOT of weight overseas.)
Prep hard for the LSAT and aim for a 173. With your app, that means a near certain acceptance to HLS. As a result, Columbia might be willing to throw money at you.
My background and aims were like yours when I applied to law schools: French major, international aspirations. The difference between us is that your numbers and overall accomplishments are stronger. I went to HLS. The question for you will be “how to choose between HLS and Yale” as long as you keep practicing for the LSAT and take plenty of them under real-world conditions. I believe that you will ace the LSAT and will get accepted everywhere if you do that.
Also, please note that HLS prefers that applicants do something between college and law school instead of going straight through. Why not work abroad for a year? Your numbers may be so strong that you’d get into HLS even if you don’t, but doing so will enhance your career in any event.
Thanks so much for the heartening reply! I am hoping to do a fellowship at ENS in Paris next year, or maybe at the Université de Bourgogne. I think that would be a good way to spend a year.
Yeah that’s my worry. On the one hand, I don’t want to be saddled with hella debt, especially seeing as working in international law/diplomacy is not particularly high-paying. On the other hand, I know prestige counts for a great deal.
@NYULawyer: I agree with this poster 100%.
@mbessey17 : Probably better to focus on the Top13, as the T-14 changes between Texas & Georgetown and the T-13 have much better job placement.
small nit: Just bcos UT is now ranked #14 doesn’t make it part of the ‘T14’, which is a list of 14 law schools that were all ranked in the USNews’ top 10 at least once.
But your point about GULC is well-taken wrt job placement.
@mbessey17, I’m not sure if law schools treat another year of studies as the same as a paid job, for purposes of enhancing an application for admissions. They might, but I would lean towards a paid job if feasible.
I agree with @NYULawyer that you could get a free ride at a “lower T14”, but I don’t think I’d take that route. If you want to do public international law, those types of jobs are very scarce, and where you go to law school might matter in terms of getting them. @bluebayou is correct. (I would always highly recommend HLS, but Columbia at a discount may be worth considering; I would expect that career options from both schools would be very similar.)
If you end up doing something other than public international law, then someone with your IQ and motivation (which are both very strong) will make gobs of money and there’s no reason to worry about the cost of law school tuition in the long run.
I know very few people who, once they graduate, do what they planned to do before going to law school, so it’s good to keep options open with the fanciest diploma you can get, from the highest-ranked school you can get into.
You’d be surprised that many employers don’t give a jack about where you got your degree from. Most grads of top law schools end up at Biglaw anyway, at least as first gigs. From there, it’s up to your networking skills and talent to land whatever jobs you’d be targeting. For 2nd, 3rd, 4th jobs out of school, the fact that you attended Harvard Law, as opposed to Penn Law or Duke Law, doesn’t really factor into the equation for the vast majority of jobs, including government attorney jobs, in house counsel positions, etc.
Heck, I made a switch from Biglaw to Business Consulting and it was all about knowing the right people (network) and acing the case interviews (my own skill) that did it, not the school name written on the piece of paper.
You know what would really suck? Going 300k into debt to attend Harvard Law and ending up at the same exact job that you’d end up at coming out of UVA or Duke law. And if you attended UVA law, you would have no debt at all and all that Biglaw salary would go straight to your bank account.
I say that no law school, including Yale, is worth attending at full sticker price. My opinion
Where you go to law school does matter for your first job out of law school, which often puts you on a track that may affect the rest of your career. HLS and Yale certainly have better placement than somewhere in the lower T14. One may think, “so what; I’ll have great grades wherever I go” but doing well in undergrad does not automatically mean that one will do well in law school, so I wouldn’t count on going to a lower T14 and having the same job prospects as coming from, say, Yale.
My employers in my last two jobs made it clear that my degree was a factor in picking my resume over others, and I am mid-career. When times are bad (such as in the next recession), I wouldn’t want to have a degree from a school that wasn’t the best I could attend and be wondering what opportunities I was missing due to having turned down, say, Yale. The job market is hard enough, even coming from HLS.
In my experience, NYULawyer is spot-on correct. (However, independent recruiters/head-hunters in NYC seem to prefer candidates with law degrees from prestigious schools.)
I am often surprised at where some partners and associates went to law school at some national firms. One national law firm in particular seems to have attorneys from no-name law schools. Of course, they do not pay market rates, but this firm has an unusually high number of partners compared to the number of associates.
I respectfully disagree with the second paragraph of the above post by HappyAlumnus. While he/she may have gotten positions based in large part on pedigree, it usually only affects one’s chances for one’s first job after finishing law school. And that position typically was where the law student clerked between the second & third years of law school.
Also, in hard times, one’s law school isn’t much of a factor in securing a legal position unless practicing tax law and in possession of an LLM from NYU or Georgetown. But even in that situation, actual work experience in a relevant area of tax law should trump one’s law degree.
Many of the top tier schools have fellowships to attract specialized talent. They don’t always advertise those fellowships on their websites, but make awards to attract talent through the admissions process. If you’re interested in Asia-related int. law, look at Harvard, Yale, Columbia. NYU, UMich, at the very least as they have Asia-related centers and programs.
I think that @Publisher’s post is well-thought. I have been told by employers, and my HLS classmates agree, though, that having an HLS or Yale degree means that one will get considered for a job, even if there are all sorts of other adverse conditions (bad economy, no experience in a particular area, etc.), when alumni from other schools will not, simply because having a Yale degree or the like is like having “capable” stamped on your forehead: employers figure that someone from Yale can figure things out and perform, no matter what. Going to a lower-tier school won’t give you that “capable” stamp or the benefit of the doubt that way.
I agree that employers care about law school. Long after there’s really no reason they should.
I’ve gone through lots of job interviews throughout my life (including many investment banks, consulting firms, and law firms), and I’ve never come across any legit employer that suggested a clear reason as to why you got offered over other applicants, or did not make the cut over others. I just can’t envision a legitimate employer telling me “hey, I’d like to consider you for an offer just because you went to Harvard / Yale / whatever, even if you didn’t interview as well as others, and your skillset isn’t what we are looking for”. You must be working for some very non-impressive companies or tiny no-name law firms.
The thing is, you can make yourself attractive to many types of lucrative employers by doing many things that don’t cost an arm and a leg. Networking with the people that matter, sharpening analytical skills, reading a lot of books relevant to your desired field, and working to become a better salesman are all things that are much more important to your career success, rather than the name of school on your resume.
I agree that going to a top school will help you get that first good job out of school. But past that, it really doesn’t matter much. Certainly not enough to justify going into 300k worth of debt. And also, if you are a stud and have the qualities that the selective, elite employers value, then you can just screw with law firms and get a top tier business job. You will be much better off anyways. If some crummy law firm rejects me for not being a Harvard Law grad, I certainly won’t lose any sleep over it. I can just get a job in business development at a tech firm, or become a consultant at McKinsey or Bain.
@NYULawyer, not sure why you see a need to lob insults at people (“You must be working for some very non-impressive companies or tiny no-name law firms.”) Also not sure why you assume the facts alleged in your insult, instead of asking for the full story.
Just so you know, I was told that I got jobs due to my degrees by Fortune 50 companies.
So your assumption is incorrect.
@NYULawyer: Have to agree with HA on this. I know for a fact law firms care, including national firms with high rankings in your ranking system of choice. It’s often used as a first cut method. I haven’t checked going in house.
“not sure why you see a need to lob insults at people (“You must be working for some very non-impressive companies or tiny no-name law firms.”) Also not sure why you assume the facts alleged in your insult, instead of asking for the full story.”
→ wasn’t meant as an insult. I wouldn’t have taken offense at my remark, but if you did, I apologize.
“Have to agree with HA on this. I know for a fact law firms care, including national firms with high rankings in your ranking system of choice. It’s often used as a first cut method. I haven’t checked going in house.”
→ I haven’t looked for legal in house jobs (and don’t ever plan to), so I admit I am no expert in this arena. If anything, if what you guys are saying is true, it just reflects on the sad reality of job market for lawyers.
I know dudes from my high school that went to 3rd tier state schools and went into accounting, software engineering, etc. Several years out, they are all making six figure salaries and have switched jobs multiple times, and they all work in-house at big corps in engineering, corp finance, etc functions. As for me, as a consultant working at a good management consulting firm, I get recruiter emails at least 10 times a week trying to offer me interviews for in-house strategy, marketing, business development type gigs at F500, start ups, finance companies, hedge funds, media companies, etc etc. I’ve known many of my ex-coworkers that used to work in consulting that had multiple job offers within a couple of months of active looking. And many of them didn’t even go to top 10 colleges / MBA’s / law schools.
I guess the take away is don’t go to a law school, or if you do, go super cheap.