<p>Is Chapman a good university to go to for Law??</p>
<p>I've asked a lot of people the same question and have received hugely varying responses. Chapman is bottom tier, but it's also next to brand new and has a lot of support behind it. The university is pouring resources in its direction.</p>
<p>I've had reliable sources tell me "You absolutely can not apply. Waste of your money, waste of your time." I've also had reliable sources tell me "For a good scholarship to a school where you would stand out, and with an interest in working in California, anything is worth your time."</p>
<p>It has seemed to amount to:</p>
<p>-- Where you want to practice (Chapman is not a name that carries far and the law school is young, so does not have a significant alum base).</p>
<p>-- What kind of law you want to practice (and how important school prestige is in your chosen field).</p>
<p>-- What your stats are like and whether financial aid is an issue (I know of someone with a 170 LSAT who went to Chapman b/c she received a full-tuition scholarship for her score).</p>
<p>I am FAR from an expert on this topic, but I guess my feeling is pretty simple: not everyone can go to a T14 school, and that's fine (despite what many CC-ers argue). If you have a strong reason for choosing Chapman and think you can stand out there and claw yourself a job that you're happy with, then go for it. That said, if you don't have strong and particular reasons and you think you'd be middle-of-the-pack in your class, then it might make sense to go somewhere more established (which does not necessarily equate to a better education). That's kind of my instinct, BUT, in fairness, according to Princeton Review:</p>
<p>-- Ranked 8th for "Professors Rock (Legally Speaking)" (University of Chicago ranks 7th, to put things in a context)</p>
<p>-- Ranked 3rd for "Best Quality of Life" (UVA is 2nd, Stanford is 5th)</p>
<p>-- "Professors interesting rating" = 96 (very high)</p>
<p>-- "Professors accessible rating" = 93 (very high)</p>
<p>-- Academic specialties: Advocacy and resolution, environmental law, property, taxation.</p>
<p>-- 84% employed within 9mos of graduation</p>
<p>-- $73, 644 = Average starting salary</p>
<p>-- Pass rate for first-time bar = 67% (not significantly out of line with peer institutions)</p>
<p>-- "Applicants Also Look At: California Western, Loyola Marymount University, Pepperdine University, Southwestern University School of Law, University of San Diego, University of Southern California, Whittier College."</p>
<p>they will soon be competing with UCI, remember that</p>
<p>Chapman is fine if you stay in So Cal - but it will take Chapman a LONG time to gain any sort of reputation beyond that of "Tier 4 School" outside of So Cal, so take care! </p>
<p>Also, their scholarships are so so. I was offered full tuition, but thats the limit of their merit awards...no living stipends, etc ...which considering I WAS offered that at a couple other Top Tier So Cal schools, I didn't think they were that interested in even trying to win top students...just want to get as many "decent" students as they can...not that I blame them, but you just gotta know that your peers aren't going to be "great" (great in the sense that admissions councils generally mean it) because "great" are not only incented to chose other schools in the area for rankings...but because Chapman isn't offering comparable financial incentives either....</p>
<p>The short answer is no. It's generally not a good idea to go to any fourth-tier school unless you are absolutely dead-set on being a lawyer and have no other options. Even then, it's worth seriously reconsidering your career goals before committing a significant amount of time and money to what could be a very disappointing endeavor.</p>
<p>I wouldnt go as far as to say it would be a "disappointing endeavor." </p>
<p>Chapman graduates do have positive employment experiences -- especially in So Cal and especially if you are a top 10% graduate in their class. </p>
<p>Also, students who cant even get admitted to some "top" schools may very well get a full tuition scholarship to Chapman...so even if you dont graduate and earn 100k+, your still looking at an opportunity to be an attorney...and eventually with experience earn stereotypical "attorney" salaries with a low upfront monetary investment (your still taking the hit for 3 years of wages while you are in school, but at least you're not paying tuition on top of that which represents about $100k). </p>
<p>I think its career limiting to choose a 4 Tier School if Top Tier schools are available to you (for example, you will have a hard time securing a law school teaching position if thats ever in your heart to do)....but if you are having trouble getting admitted to Top Tier schools, you shouldnt give up your dream of being an attorney rather than seriously considering a Tier 4. Quality of education and post graudation employment opportunities are not necessarily disappointing, they will simply not be automatically assured and you will probably have to do a bit more footwork there.</p>
<p>It has enormous potential to be disappointing, because even the numbers the school itself releases are terrible. According to the Princeton Review, the average debt load of a Chapman grad is about $64K. You have to be out of your mind to go that deeply into debt for a degree that could leave you struggling to find work as a contract attorney. </p>
<p>I have no idea what "stereotypical attorney salary" is supposed to mean. Certainly you will not be earning anything close to biglaw money with a Chapman JD, unless you are in the very top of the class.</p>
<p>"$73, 644 = Average starting salary of first year grads; 84% employed within 9mos of graduation."</p>
<p>It may not have the jaw-dropping effect of the top schools, but this puts Chapman higher than a lot of its peers, and not far off of numerous higher ranked schools (in this single respect, at least). Granted, OC is a pricey area and Chapman's name doesn't have a ton of carry value, but still...career prospects are not (or do not have to be) nearly <em>as</em> dim as one might expect.</p>
<p>Its peers are other fourth-tier schools and career prospects for its graduates are pretty dim. Again, these are the numbers the school is reporting, which are subject to all kinds of manipulation (especially if a lot of grads are working as contract attorneys, which is very possibly the case). And even those numbers are not that impressive. I don't see any reason to pretend otherwise. Anyone considering Chapman or any fourth-tier school should very seriously consider the possibility that they will end up heavily in debt and unemployed.</p>
<p>Americanski, do you have any personal experience with graduates of chapman or the business community in orange county?</p>
<p>Meh. Some people choose to spend 40K a year on no-name, bottom tier private undergraduate schools. Some people choose to major in subjects that have horrible career prospects, or that really don't require a college degree. Some people spend money on college and even grad school knowing that they will never even USE the degree. </p>
<p>Not everyone wants to go to Harvard and practice corporate law, which is good, because not everyone can. Yes, there's a pretty gigantic leap from Chapman to Harvard, but the point still stands.</p>
<p>If you know what you want to do and you think that Chapman (or any other particular school) will get you there (and there are ways of figuring out the likelihood of this), then I say knock your socks off. You're lucky. Just be sure to know the limits of a 4th-tier education AS WELL as the merits (which I do believe exist), and consider carefully how those might weigh against one another in the future.</p>
<p>I agree with Student615. </p>
<p>Also, you cant blame the school for your opptys. Lets face it, a lot of the Chapman graduates dim prospects - if they truly are even dim - are unsurprising given the quality of the students BEFORE Chapman gets them. Statistically, the Chapman entering class are students who didnt work hard enough in their undergrad/LSAT/soft factors to be accepted by the top schools reflecting THEIR lacking motivation/ambition/dedication to their schooling and careers. So you can't completing blame Chapman or make a direct connection to the school and your potential -- law schools arent magical machines where you input dirty coal and spit out Tiffany's engagement rings - they most likely do the best they can with the student body they get. </p>
<p>Now if you're highly motivated and perhaps just had other issues in your undergrad where those numerics aren't reflective of your true dedication and potential - then you have the ability to be really great in Chapman and can think of Chapman as a place thats lucky to be open and willing to give you the chance to show your true potential....and use them for all they've got!</p>
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Not everyone wants to go to Harvard and practice corporate law, which is good, because not everyone can. Yes, there's a pretty gigantic leap from Chapman to Harvard, but the point still stands.
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<p>I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Anyone at Chapman who says they wouldn't rather be at Harvard is a liar. This holds true for just about everyone at any fourth-tier school.</p>
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If you know what you want to do and you think that Chapman (or any other particular school) will get you there (and there are ways of figuring out the likelihood of this)
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<p>Right, that's what I'm saying. The problem is that if your way of calculating the likelihood is looking at misleading, inflated employment numbers, you're going to be disappointed. </p>
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Just be sure to know the limits of a 4th-tier education AS WELL as the merits (which I do believe exist)
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<p>Again, I'm not really clear what the "merits" are except that if you graduate, you can take the bar (which a third of their graduates fail in CA). The point is that you should be aware this is literally the only thing you can count on with a Chapman JD. </p>
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Also, you cant blame the school for your opptys.
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<p>Well, certainly the school's terrible reputation is the reason the opportunities are so poor. That may be a result of a weak student body, but the fact remains that they'll happily take hundreds of thousands of dollars from you and give you basically no hope of getting a decent job. The idea that they owe you nothing in return for the $150+K in tuition is a little ridiculous.</p>
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<li><p>No, NOT every fourth-tier school's students would rather be at Harvard, and to think otherwise is unbelievable! I wholeheartedly disagree with the generalization, though it had little relevance to my original comment/point, anyway.</p></li>
<li><p>Your way of calculating does not have to be (nor SHOULD it be) looking at misleading, inflated employment numbers, and that's not what I intended to apply. Firstly, I don't know that you, Americanski, have much more evidence that those numbers are inflated than I have that they're accurate (feel free to argue otherwise). Secondly, you can very easily find out where recent grads at working, who recruits on campus, what internships students are getting, how local firms view the school, what branches of law the school emphasizes, and so forth. </p></li>
<li><p>Chapman gets absolute top ratings (which I recognize are subjective), both in relation to its peers and in relation to top schools, for the quality of its professors, the accessibility of its professors, the quality of its resources, and the overall quality of life of it students. There is something to be said for not being totally miserable in law school. There's also a lot to be said for merit scholarships, for the location, for being a top student at a 4th tier school rather than a poor or mediocre student at a more highly (but still not top) ranked school, and so forth. There's also the very simple "fit" factor. No, this might not be undergrad where that factor will make or break a decision, but it's still present and difficult to ignore.</p></li>
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<p>I'll grant you the fact that name-value is (or can be) important in a legal career, but it is not everything. Frankly, I don't have any idea what "terrible reputation" you're talking about. The school is a relative no-name, but that's not necessarily equivalent to a terrible reputation, and bear in mind that the law school was founded hardly 10 years ago! Furthermore, just because it's reputation--good, bad, or average--is <em>A</em> reason behind students' opportunities does not mean it is <em>THE</em> reason. </p>
<p>I'm no expert and am the first to admit it, but I've done a loooooot of recent reading on law schools from the 1st tier to the 4th. I would not jump in to pump up most 4th tier schools, but the info you will find on Chapman is far different than that which you'll find on most of its peer institutions. </p>
<p>(Also, there's definitely no 150K+ tuition, even if you factor in room, board, and miscellany.)</p>
<p>Student615 - I dont think we need to continue argueing with Ski...our arguments are supported by actual documentation from the school and institutions that evaluate law schools, so the OP and anyone else who cares shouldnt have to think to hard about who to take more seriously here ...not to mention ski's whole argument about Chapman is based solely of off rankings which by the admission of all but 3 ABA approved laws school - including deans from T10 schools through to the 4th tier, are meaningless, say nothing about the actual quality of education at a school, and simply exist for USNR to make money. </p>
<p>Also, I work for a person who graduated from Wake, a Tier 1 school, and as a native Californian, came back here to settle down. She has commented multiple times at how much easier it seems to be for Chapman graduates to work down here, at solid salaries, even though her degree is from a much "better" school. Thats becuase employment, below the Top 20 or so schools is very REGIONAL. So yeah, your going to be limited in academia and may struggle outsides of the region of your Tier 4 school, but regionally you will DEFINITELY have opportunities and Ski's assertions here regarding employment opportunities are melodramatic, unsupported and far more grim than ANY reputable source indicates. </p>
<p>So good luck if you choose to go to Chapman!</p>
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Secondly, you can very easily find out where recent grads at working, who recruits on campus, what internships students are getting, how local firms view the school, what branches of law the school emphasizes, and so forth.
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<p>As general advice, "what brances of law the school emphasizes" is irrelevant. You don't major in anything at law school. It's not a particularly good idea to consider a schools alleged specialties in deciding to go there. </p>
<p>Also, if you look at who recruits at Chapman, you can see that zero biglaw firms interview there and that only a couple of NALP firms do, all of them pretty small. If you look at Martindale, you'll see that only a couple work for large firms while a lot are at very small firms or work as solo practitioners. That's really not very encouraging and, as I've said, there's no reason to sugar-coat this.</p>
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Chapman gets absolute top ratings (which I recognize are subjective), both in relation to its peers and in relation to top schools, for the quality of its professors, the accessibility of its professors, the quality of its resources, and the overall quality of life of it students.
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<p>These rankings are, and I can't emphasize this enough, absolutely meaningless. I don't know why you're making these desperate attempts to justify going to Chapman. It's not doing the OP or other people in his position any favors.</p>
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I'll grant you the fact that name-value is (or can be) important in a legal career, but it is not everything.
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<p>It's the most important factor in getting your first job. It's really irresponsible to minimize its importance when you're giving somebody advice about law school.</p>
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Frankly, I don't have any idea what "terrible reputation" you're talking about.
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<p>Are you kidding? A lot of lawyers have never even heard of the school and the ones who have generally regard it as among the worst in the country. How else could you describe that kind of reputation?</p>
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Also, there's definitely no 150K+ tuition, even if you factor in room, board, and miscellany.
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<p>Well, tell that to Chapman, because the budget figures they themselves give say it will cost over $53K a year. That's an enormous amount of money to spend on a school when the degree really gives you nothing more than an opportunity to take the bar.</p>
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our arguments are supported by actual documentation from the school and institutions that evaluate law schools
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<p>The institutions that evaluate law schools rank Chapman as one of the worst in the country. I don't know why you seem to think you're helping anyone by obscuring this fact. </p>
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So good luck if you choose to go to Chapman!
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<p>You'll need it.</p>
<p>Twist the words however you choose. I'm pretty much tapped out re: what I know, so to say more would be redundant. Enough info has been given for the OP to figure things out, and I don't believe that anything has been obscured or sugarcoated. Best of luck :-)</p>
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These rankings are, and I can't emphasize this enough, absolutely meaningless.
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The institutions that evaluate law schools rank Chapman as one of the worst in the country.
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there is something wrong with this picture.</p>
<p>No, there isn't. The subjective rankings in the Princeton Review that try to measure things like faculty quality are meaningless. US News rankings? Pretty important.</p>