<p>I once saw some seniors at my school taking the CFA and I noticed that one of them wasn't going low enough on the push-ups. On the way up, he stopped and started back down way too early. The instructor watched him do this along with another senior who was doing some better push-ups and said nothing. I'd say the fault here is both the student's and the instructor's.</p>
<p>This really bothered me because I believe that everyone should do every exercise completely. A lot of times I see guys do pull ups, but they go half way down and then back up. These are not pull-ups, its that simple. When you go down in a pull-up, you're supposed to go all the way down until your arms are straight . When you go up, your chin is suppose to pass the bar. Its simply wrong for one person doing a fake exercise to get a higher score than another person doing a real exercise, especially if the second person is stronger.</p>
<p>I know a lot of people would argue that doing less than the complete exercise would result in more reps, giving them a higher score, and therefore increase their chances of getting into West Point. The way I see it however, is that if you really deserve to be in West Point you should be able to take the CFA for real and do well on it. West Point is not for the weak. If you can't do simple exercises the way they should be done, what makes you think that you should get into one of the best schools in the nation, and then lead men and maybe women, with their lives as your responsibility.</p>
<p>Before people think seriously about applying to West Point, I believe that they should think about whether or not they would really benefit the nation or if someone would else is better candidate. If they decide that someone else is a better candidate, they should not be ashamed because that was a sacrifice, a sign of selflessness, and probably benefited the U.S more than the other choice. On the other hand if someone believes that he/she is a good candidate then work hard and prove it.</p>
<p>I said that the fault was both the student's and the instructor's. I wouldn't blame the student too much if he didn't know that he was doing it wrong but he still should have known. If he did and he was cheating, well, that's much worse. I do blame the instructor a lot though. Instructors should definitely know the right way to take the test and enforce it.</p>
<p>In the end this is still only my opinion and I just wanted to spread it to those willing to accept it. I also wanted to see how many people agree or disagree with what I think so comments would be appreciated. Anyone wondering about the real way to take the CFA should go to the bottom of this page USMA</a> Admissions: Apply to USMA: Prospectus: Steps to West Point: 6: Complete Testing where there are links to descriptions of each exercise in vivid detail. Also note how strict the instructions are to the instructor.</p>
<p>Cheating is obviously an Honor Code violation, once up at West Point. Yes, nobody should cut corners or lie. However, I would caution you. There is a word for individuals who make this type of comment up at West Point and more importantly, in the Army. Your point might even be valid, but what comes shining through more is attitude and contempt. If you are applying to the Academy yourself and if you do receive an appointment, be careful of what you say and how you say it. False accusations can be just as heinous.</p>
<p>majmattmason I respect your comment but I do not fully understand it. I'm not saying that you're accusing me of false accusations but I just want to make it clear to people that I am not falsely accusing people and I didn't mention names. I won't be offended by what you mean in your comment so please explain it further.</p>
<p>Majmattmason, I can see what ur getting at, but I have a hard time seeing that in this situation. It seems to to me that allen was just making an observation about something he had noticed and that it bothered him that someone who was trying to get into a school where cheating is absolutely intolerable, would intentionally cheat to get in. That behavior and thinking only leads to a vicious cycle once he/she gets in.
That being said, allen you should be very aware of the tone of what you say. There are some parts of your post that come across, like he said, as a little contemptuous and arrogant. Not that you were at all meaning to sound like that, but that you should carefully read what you write before you post it; remember, once you click the button it's permanently out there, even if you go back and delete it afterward.</p>
<p>AmericanSoldier, thanks for your comments, they are appreciated.</p>
<p>Allen.331, I don't disagree with your assessment of the situation, but took issue with the delivery. Sometimes the message is mangled by the messenger and I want you to just consider that if you do wind up at West Point. That is all I wanted to convey. Have you applied and if so, what is your status?</p>
<p>drifting slightly but...
Son attended SLS the summer following his junior year. They were given a CFA while there and during the pushup portion he thought he was cruising along just fine. In his head he was on #55 and the cadet doing the counting called out... "32". Son didn't realize he wasn't doing them to standard until that point. This experience helped a lot when it came time for him to take his "real" CFA. ;~)</p>
<p>there are people you will see during beast that you know for sure cheated on the cfa because they fail the apft so miserably. there are also people who are on profile so often that they've gone all the way through plebe year without ever having to take an apft. don't be one of those guys.</p>
<p>I had to laugh at the "Don't be one of those guys" comment. "Don't be THAT GUY", is a common phrase at ALL of the Academies. Standing out for exemplary performance is a good thing, but being "THAT GUY" for the wrong reasons is never a good thing. Almost always said jokingly as in "Man, I'm glad I'm not THAT GUY".</p>
<p>push ups are always as subjective as the grader. At the academy, we all avoided the line during the APFT that certain graders oversaw, knowing they would be incredibly tough on the standards, while other graders wouldnt pay attention. Its the same way in the Army, it all depends who you have as a grader. My first pass at Ranger School, I arrived being able to do about 80 push ups pretty routinely on the AFPT, going back to my time at USMA and during IOBC and what not. Not five minutes into Ranger School, I got dropped for only doing 29 'correct' push ups. One month later, when I was given the chance to start the course again, I did the exact same, deliberate push ups I had done the month before and was not cut a single push up. It all depends on your grader. Unfourtunately, the CFA is going to have an even wider disparity as the graders often have no military back ground and just assume if you go up and down, you're good. Just focus on yourself, ensure you're doing everything right, and let those who take the easy route get found out in due time.</p>
<p>Amen to that ScreamingEagle...when I entered Beast I found my 100 or so pushups on the CFA turned into something like 75-80 on the APFT, and that with every ounce of energy I had. There's a lot to be said for proper form, not just that you can have push-ups and sit-ups counted against you without it, but also that making proper form a habit (i.e. muscle memory) can help you do them faster and more easily in the long run. Work on it now, and that will be one less thing that you have to worry about during Beast.</p>
<p>I will add an "amen" to ScreamingEagle and AmericanSoldier. My Plebe found that only about one-half of his pushups during the diagnostic APFT at Beast were counted because of incorrect form. In his mind, his form was fine on all of them and he had done well over the max, but the one counting them did not think so ;) He was fine on form by the time the test was re-administered at the end of Beast. Ironically, he called to tell me they took their spring diagnostic APFT yesterday... (just to see where they stand before attempting it again "for real" before the end of the semester). His ending comment caught my attention: "The dept. of PE will probably be there overseeing the real one". My take on this comment: The Phys Ed dept. is notorious for making sure the form is always correctly done or it is not counted. Cutting corners now will catch up to cadets eventually.</p>