My son wants to take Chem 150 with lab and Bio 141 with lab first semester freshman year. I am wondering if this is common or recommended or just plain crazy? I would really appreciate any advise from current or past students. He is on the pre-med track and not sure if he will major in Bio or Chem.
@2021MOMA : It is extremely common at top tier schools where the biology sequence is not ultra heavy in chemistry. Do not let others tell him it is crazy (again, this may be one reason some Emory applicants look bad compared to those at other top schools. Maneuvers around having a challenging pre-med schedule become too obvious). Bio lecture is not that bad and chem lab is easy. Also, what if your son decides to be say…an NBB major (which is heavy in course requirements and has NBB 301, which requires physics, chem, and biology as pre-reqs). It is highly recommended that those two courses get squared away ASAP. Also, what is your sons background AP/IB and dual enrollment wise (those who have merely taken one of them, whether they scored 4/5 on a STEM exam or not are generally prepared to double up)? Chances are, if he has a credit in either, he should just skip one of them (I would say bio is less risky to skip than chemistry).
Unless the STEM background from HS is questionable or borderline poor, this should be doable for any person claiming to be pre-med. Pre-meds will end up doubling up and some point in time. Doubling up with two generally medium level/standard level courses isn’t a horrible idea (I mean other freshman classes will likely balance out those two). It is either that or delay biology until sophomore year and take it with ochem (because you will want to take bchem before the MCAT), which will be challenging if your son actually cares about quality instruction. If your son is prepared and passes up on a chance to knock out two of the easier pre-reqs now, then he may find himself aiming low (choosing easier instructors for key pre-health/MCAT prep related courses simply to accommodate more courses than he would had he knocked one out earlier) or playing the “summer” card too heavily (another things that med. schools can pick up on and some one like it) later.
Your son should also do the ECP thing ASAP as that is another way to gauge his readiness. If he completes/is disciplined enough to complete the ECP in a reasonable amount of time, then doubling up is doable.
Also, focus more on quality instructors than whether or not your son is doubling up. That will impact his grades and what he learns. If he gets a quality instructor that is known to be “hard”, he may still perform better than in an instructor’s course who is known for ease but has little time to help students or simply conveys material poorly. He is also more likely to enjoy the material instead of wanting out. Please ask your son who he is considering taking because this is what matters. He should avoid short sighted decisions. He has an MCAT to take and has to show that he can handle more than one STEM course at a time to medical schools.
My daughter will be a pre-med freshman at Oxford this fall. She’s a little worried because she planned to take biology this first semester and all the classes appear to be filled before freshmen get a chance to register. Is that possible? She has AP credits in Chem, Bio and Physics (all 5’s) and plans to be a chem major. She can’t use the AP credit for bio because med schools want the equivalent of bio 141, and AP bio is more like bio 120. Any chance more sections will open up?
@econmomto3
"She can’t use the AP credit for bio because med schools want the equivalent of bio 141, and AP bio is more like bio 120. "
False. The AP is a mixture of concepts from 141, 142, and organismal/ecology courses. I would argue that the bio 141 lecture is a waste for anyone with AP credit, though 142 is useful. There is a reason they award 141 credit to students with AP credit on both main and at Oxford (though main allows students to take the lab alone which is a good arrangement for pre-meds). And there are upper division courses that she should take on main that help replace 141 and will prepare her better for the MCAT. Med. schools (at least most) do not care as long as you replace that course with a relevant upper division course. Even as a chemistry major, she should be interested in preparing for the MCAT through upper division biology courses such as Biol 360 (Neurobiology), Biochem, Genetics, Cell biology, or microbiology (which has a lab and many med and health professional schools recommend this as well as the others). If your daughter is aiming for biology 141, it should only be an INQ version of the course at Oxford (but really just not at all). And usually they allocate more courses specifically for freshman as registration or orientation approaches.
Your daughter has all these 5s, she should not be in 141, even if pre-med. Sit that one out and take a strong instructor for an upper division bio course that may vibe well with her developing chemistry background (I recommend cell biology/epigenetics with Eisen or genetics). I have had friends get into and matriculate very top and other medical schools without setting foot in biology 141 (or any 141s in some cases). Don’t fall for the fear hype about AP credits.
Three that come off the top of my head from main campus had AP credit and took 240 as freshmen, with no 141-L lab. One is at Michigan for MDPhD and was admitted Harvard and WUSTL for MD, the other is at Stanford for MD. One is at Cornell MD and was an international student so it was not easy to gain admissions (these three started in gen. chem). There are several who took no biology first semester and just took 142/142-L. One was a chemistry major and he is at UCSF MDPhD, one friend who also took no biology first semester and is at Pittsburgh MDPhD… He was chem BA and Biology BS. uding o Go figure. There are tons of other examples) and other medical schools without setting foot in biology 141 (or any 141s in some cases). Don’t fall for the fear hype about AP credits. All of these took at least one upper division or graduate biology or chemistry course of interest. Most were very top students who also took upper division STEM courses outside of their majors (explains access to very top programs and MDPhDs).
I also have two friends at University of Miami med. who skipped biology 141. One was a chemistry major and the other neuroscience. They both took biochemistry and NBB 301 (or biol 360). They also took calculus based physics, freshman ochem, etc (most folks I mentioned took freshman ochem, but the first 3 did not). Your daughter is not average. Do not encourage her to act average with her course selection. Aim higher if she has a good background. Fill the space with perhaps even a non-STEM course she may enjoy. Or find a more intermediate Science or Math class her AP credit can get her into.
@bernie12 Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I truly appreciate your insight. My son was determined to take both and I am glad to hear it’s more than doable. We have friends at Vandy and Wake who are pre-med, who have advised him to take the entry level courses to have a strong base going forward. They are not the type to take the easy road, by far. They all went to the same high school, so maybe they saw gaps in the curriculum.
He took Organic Chem his senior year in high school as an elective because he knew it would give him a good base in college. He has taken AP BIO and AP CHEM. He scored a 4 and 3 respectfully. I know he is committed to taking the best/challenging professors. He wants the best instruction to prepare for the MCAT. And yes, he has completed his ECCP.
If you don’t mind me asking, how would you rank Roode, O’Toole, Abreu, and Escobar for chem? And for bio McGill, Williams,Heaven Soria, Vaghn, Lian, and Conticello? Thank you again for all the thoughtful and thorough knowledge you take the time to share. It’s invaluable!
Uhmmm…I don’t know about Wake Forest, but I am familiar with the Vanderbilt curriculum structure for general biology. First of all, it is much more detail(memorization and somewhat applied memorization of high content volume, more content than covered in AP) oriented than Emory’s. Emory’s focuses on experimentation and problem solving, which…the AP did. Second, more specifically, Vanderbilt crams a more detailed version of cell biology (including metabolism) and classical genetics into the first semester. Emory’s 1st semester is more cursory than VU’s in terms of the content (moves slower, less volume), and is thus skippable. The second semester continues into a more rigorous treatment of genetics than VU does in either semester (VU begins to veer to physiology and ecology, the traditional scheme seen at many large public schools and some privates, even the great ones), which is why I said that one is even useful to someone who took AP which probably does not emphasize developmental and prokaryotic genetics as much. Basically, at VU, the first semester is more useful to an AP student than the second, whereas at Emory, an AP student has little use for 141, but 142, maybe. Also, like most schools, upper division biology courses usually do not build upon each other well (whether it be Emory, VU, wherever), so this idea of “foundation” in the introductory course is almost false and is at minimum far overblown.
Many upper division courses could function as foundations for most talented/well prepared students and that is just the reality. You can go up into many folks upper division biology course and be fine without even AP level experience from HS. That is the nature of biology curricula. However, again with bio 142 at Emory. That, unlike 141, emphasizes much higher level problem solving so prepares a student planning to take the BEST instruction (yes, this usually means more rigorous and problem solving/research/data analysis oriented) like the Eisens, Becks, Orloffs, Antias, Yokoyamas, genetics instructors, and quantitative courses, a good biology 142 teacher is crucial. Most people will forget content in 141 because it is okay, but still much more memorization oriented than 142. 142 skills (like reading gels, interpreting microarray and other modern experiments) are more lasting and critical for the best upper division courses. At Emory, it isn’t about “foundation” (content volume and exposure), so much as it is about skills. This is why I generally say that for someone with AP, taking 240 lecture with bio 141-L is better than 141 lecture because 240 primes students for the type of learning that takes place in at least 50% of intermediate and upper division courses (most intermediates at Emory have primary literature discussion sections, so learning to analyze data and figures like you do in 240 is important). At VU, this is not the case. Many upper division and intermediate courses seem to remain content volume/details oriented (and they definitely don’t have 200-levels and many 300 levels that have a substantial emphasis on journal article reading), so again I can see why they think the getting used to the content volume or getting that foundation is more important there.
As for the instructors. You mixed them lol. The first group was biology and the second chem. I place Abreu as top ranked. De Rhoode is award winning, BUT (this is where you must be careful at research universities) that is for his evolutionary biology class, which aligns with his research focus. It looks like the bio 141 thing (having him and Escobar on roster) is to compensate for Spell’s sabbatical, and he is also team teaching with Cole. My honest guess is that neither will have much time because Cole runs the 141 labs so is swamped (probably why she is getting De Rhoode to help), but it will likely not be a priority for Jaap either because it is an intro course not aligned with his research and he has never taught it before. Given this, ranking is Abreu>O’toole>De Rhoode/Cole>Escobar. I also put a premium on those who will teach 141 AND 142, so Abreu would get the edge simply because he is the only one on the roster who will. I recommend him either both semesters or him for 141 and Spell for 142.There will be mass flocking to Cafferty for 142, but I am sure that it is really mainly because he is easy and just gives multiple choice exams (which freshmen did well on so most still love). If you want quality, stick with anyone else. None of the sections are challenging enough to be that gungho about the exceptionally easy section.
Chem: I will rank the standard sections, McGill, Williams, Vaughn, Conticello, Heaven, Lian.
Only McGill, Williams, and Vaughn are relevant lol…stay far away from the last three. They literally do not care. McGill>Williams=Vaughn. These three are probably under the same umbrella. McGill is responsible for the new curriculum design and is an awesome teacher and likely is prepping and training the other two. I suspect the irrelevants will definitely be easier, but since the 2nd semester now has organic chemistry (real organic chemistry, not labeling functional groups and just drawing organic compounds) concepts, I would take the sections serious about preparing students for that. In addition, all of the 2nd semester (202) instructors will be fairly rigorous. Taking one of those three (one who teaches very poorly and will admit that he does not like it/is clueless about the new classes) could really screw over a student in 202 because there isn’t a super joke section to run to that will accommodate students who took jokes first semester (this is another case where I must advocate for those teaching both semesters).
Soria: Amazing as well, but will be teaching much differently (perhaps even different content) than other sections (as he always does) because his course is a part of an initiative and…it’s Jose. Your son should definitely take this class if he doesn’t mind working and perhaps value learning at a higher level than normal. Could be worth asking for a permission number if you want an exceptional experience. He is definitely very effective at making learning fun, but keeping the demands high (so can be strict and will write rigorous exams. He has a nice bonus point system that more than makes up for that though).
However, McGill is more than fine for less ambitious students who still care about learning and their future in the sequence (basically, they are a little scared of a different level of rigor than normal, but do care to be prepared for the next semester. These students are not short-sighted). Outside of McGill, only aim for the other two I mentioned. Stay away from the “tenured trio” no matter what Ratemyprofessor and your son’s peers say (RMP admits that Heaven is a joke, but again, he will not teach 202. Students with average level of HS prep coming from his section will likely be ill-prepared or have poorer work ethic. It will bite them in the behind in 202).
Also, if your son took AP chem and organic in HS, even if he got a 3, and is pre-med, he should actually consider taking 221-Z even if it is just with Liotta (not particularly rigorous, but certainly better than gen. chem). Gen. chem like courses usually do not correlate well with organic performance anyway. I would imagine exposure to organic chemistry corrlates better with organic performance 
They are allowing well-prepared/ambitious people without credit to take the course. And again, despite the rumors, if a student takes 221-Z/222-Z, they really only need ONE more upper division chemistry course. The new 204 course with lab would suffice, so I would rethink taking 150 (seriously, most folks by time they get to MCAT will forget gchem unless they are a lecture or lab TA.
@2021MOMA : Okay, actually. I change my mind. If 221-Z/222-Z is completely off the table for your son for whatever reason, I can really only advocate for Soria’s section of 150. I do not think he belongs in any of the others having had both AP and organic exposure. It just doesn’t make sense. He should try something that will teach him more effectively and rigorously given his background. Since he will take bio 141, which is not bad at all (especially considering his 4 on the exam), he can afford to take Soria for 150 and focus a decent amount of effort on that.
Basically, with your son’s experience he should choose one of two departments to either take a) a rigorous intro instructor in (only exists for chem 150) or b) an intermediate course in it.
So to me:
240 w/141-L makes sense and then 150 with McGill (or umbrella instructors)
OR
141 w/Abreu and then chem 150 with Soria.
Your son shouldn’t be completely wasting his credits on plain jane intro. biology and chem. courses. as there are many options that will get him the proper foundation and will also allow him to do well.
Also, remember that the new MCAT is a problem solving and research oriented exam. Even for those at places like VU, I would not over-rate acquiring tons of content details and foundation. Choose classes and teachers that focus on high level problem solving, reading, and data analysis (so yes, the STEM teacher that writes long, passage-based, seemingly confusing exam items or multiple choice prompts, is actually doing students who will take the MCAT a favor as long as the questions are fair and students were given resources to train for that situation). I know it is hard to think in these terms because most envision standardized exams as perfectly correlating with knowing lots of stuff (content) and not key competencies and skills. There are multiple ways to acquire a nice balance of content and skills without murdering the GPA if done properly. But the soon students can place out of/get away from STEM classes and teachers that handhold and spoonfeed, the better I think.