<p>Our engineering and chemical engineering department (faculty) has royally screwed its students. Enough said.</p>
<p>Have a great day.</p>
<p>^ how so? maybe not enough said for those of us not in the know…</p>
<p>I have a son who’s a chem engineer major, and he likes being at UA. My older son’s chem eng’g roommate likes UA, too.</p>
<p>UAprophet has a tendency to be a bomb-thrower and to put-down the school at nearly every turn. Several months ago UAProphet had many upset over the future tuition increases. (As if almost every school in the country isn’t also raising tuition.)</p>
<p>Some on that thread were then worried that their full-tuition scholarships would be affected by UA setting 16 as the credit hours for the basic rates (formerly 17). This was an unnecessary fear since past scholarship offers are a contract that implies that whatever number of credit hours was covered at the time of the offer would have to be covered in the future for that student (Of course, UA recognized that.)</p>
<p>I really think that some people will complain no matter where they are. </p>
<p>When people constantly complain about whatever school that they are at, I wonder why they don’t transfer to another school??? hmmmm Maybe deep down they know that they are hard to please and just like to complain. ::: shrugs shoulders :::</p>
<p>Haha. </p>
<p>Actually I considered transferring but that would prolong my graduation date more than I am willing to accept. Also, I realize that I love the University as a whole; however this stunt that our department is pulling on us is absurd.</p>
<p>I’ll try to break it down as short and sweet as possible. </p>
<p>As a chemical engineering major at UA, we are required to take a course that is only offered during the summer. We take this course between our junior and senior years. The dreaded CHE 320. It is an intensive 5 week course that, “officially” (as determined by the schedule when you register for this class) meets Monday through Saturday from 8am - 5pm. However, it quite literally meets from before 8am - the early hours of the morning (1am, 2am, depending on your group). Now of course this class is not the most popular among the chemical engineering majors, but we accept and we persevere through it. </p>
<p>Now here are where the problems begin. </p>
<p>First and foremost, this required summer class is not “readily” disclosed to prospective chemical engineering students. Now before you say, “You can go to the website and see the curriculum,” just how many prospective students visit school websites perusing through the school’s curriculum in depth? If you or your child did, kudos to you.
In actuality, many of the students learn about CHE 320 beginning around the sophomore year, when we start planning our schedules for the remaining years. </p>
<p>As the time to take CHE 320 approaches, the question of how to pay for this course arises? The engineering department tells students that the engineering program is a four year degree, unless students co-op, take off semesters, fail courses, etc. So, students anticipate needing 8 semesters to finish their degree. As such, they financially plan for 8 semesters of college. So when we learn about summer lab, it presents a financial burden in the form of a new unanticipated 5 credit hr (for ~5 weeks) course. Not only do you have to pay for a 5 credit hour course, but there are also very high fees associated with the summer lab. This past summer a 5 hour course tuition would cost ~$1500, with fees tacked on the summer lab course ended up being more than $2000. Also, you have to find a place to live for 5 weeks. Not too many leases run for 5 weeks. Ok, so I will just live in the dorm. Well I forgot to mention that CHE 320 starts during the interim sessions (it actually starts the Saturday after the last final also known as graduation day) and runs through the first 2 weeks of the summer 1 session. Thus housing will charge you for interim and summer session 1. It is possible to get a prorated rate but it is quite the hassle. Furthermore, staying on campus during the summer is ridiculously overpriced.</p>
<p>So the financial burdened place on students and parents by this course is great. What about scholarship students though (UA scholarship recipients)? Well, do not forget that your “full tuition” or “full ride” scholarship only covers 8 semesters of work. So for us chemical engineers on a scholarship, perhaps the National Merit scholarship, the term “assed out” comes to mind. So that chemical engineering student who worked thought he or she was going to UA for free will have to pay a hefty sum to acquire the degree. </p>
<p>So the financial burden is a great burden indeed. It also sucks to realize that you may not be graduating debt free after all. Those other schools are starting to look better.</p>
<p>But there is more.</p>
<p>So plans have been made in preparation for CHE 320. This includes finances as well as other plans for the summer. As I mentioned the class starts right after finals and continues through summer 1. This is approximately from May 9th - June 12th this past summer. For some students who would like to take other summer course, intern, or study abroad, the weird scheduling of this course introduces a new barrier to those opportunities. Some students are fortunate enough to find companies who are willing to allow them to start an internship a couple of weeks late (many internships begin in the beginning of June). Other students find later study abroad or research opportunities.</p>
<p>Now here is where my (and my fellow classmates) particular situation becomes a major annoyance. I will be taking summer lab in 2010. I prepared for this. I began saving my money (I am not able to pledge a fraternity I was considering because I now have to use my money to pay for this course) and also began looking at financial aid options. As such I planned accordingly with companies that I may want to intern with that will let me start a couple weeks later. In fact, these past few weeks many companies have been on campus interviewing for full time positions and internships. Many of my classmates have been interviewing for internship positions next summer after summer lab. When asked by the recruiters our availability, we explain to them about the summer lab and everything is cool. </p>
<p>Well, all of a sudden, our chemical engineering faculty has decided (because of a host of reasons I will not delve into) to move the dates for summer lab. They just told us today that summer lab will now be during the summer 1 session only. Now this may be ok for future students; yet, by them throwing this on the students who are scheduled to take this course in 2010, they have eliminated our opportunities to do an internship, study abroad, etc. Several of us have already had internships lined up and are in the process of interviewing with companies (including top Fortune 500 companies). Those students must now tell the companies that they will not be able to intern with them. This is more detrimental than it at first seems, because work experience is vital. Also, many companies express how they hire a large percentage of their interns for full time positions. By us not doing an internship, we are decreasing our chances of full time employment tremendously. Now the financial burden is increased exponentially.
- The financial costs of the course itself (plus residence for 5 weeks).
- The direct money (opportunity cost) that will not be made from a potential internship.
- The decreased chance of full time employment by “x” company.</p>
<p>My biggest disappointment is in the fact that our faculty is implementing this change to our class. They did tell us that it would have to change eventually, but by them having it apply to our class, it just shows us how much our faculty really cares. Why did it take them so long to reach a decision? Well, one of our professors (who is not heavily involved with the decision b/c he does not teach the summer course) told us it was simply a matter of them not meeting earlier and more often during the summer. </p>
<p>So the question arises as to who is responsible for the curriculum. I am sure that ABET plays a role in what goes on the curriculum, but it is not a heavy role. The sole decision rests on the chemical engineering faculty, not the dean of our college, and not the president of our university (yes, President Witt told me himself tonight in fact that he was not aware of this issue within the chemical engineering department). I believe our dean actually does not like the summer lab course. </p>
<p>Why do we even have this summer lab? I cannot answer that. Every time I ask my professors, I get a screw ball answer. I have looked at other schools’ curriculum and the only universities I could find that have chemical engineering summer labs are Auburn and I think Texas A&M. Even so, Auburn’s curriculum has courses set to be taken during the summer, but I believe that is just an option to lessen the load throughout the normal 4 years. Basically, the Auburn students don’t have to take the summer courses. And I believe Texas A&M had a summer chemical engineering course that is offered during the summer and regular semester, so again, it is not truly a required summer course.</p>
<p>Well, that was a lot. If anyone actually reads all that then you have my eternal respect.</p>
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<p>My son was told about this req’t by the engineering dept a year before he enrolled. </p>
<p>I believe the required summer program is also clearly mentioned in the Undergrad Catalog…yup, just checked…and in your catalog too (2006-2008) on page 205. So, it was no secret…clearly spelled out. Looks like someone didn’t do their homework… </p>
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<p>No they don’t; Eng’g Dept clearly told us that chem eng’g included this req’d summer program. </p>
<p><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
My biggest disappointment is in the fact that our faculty is implementing this change to our class. They did tell us that it would have to change eventually, **but by them having it apply to our class, it just shows us how much our faculty really cares. **
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<p>So…are you saying that they’d “show how much they care” if they did this to another class, but just not yours??? </p>
<p>to be continued… :)</p>
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<p>Well, all of a sudden, our chemical engineering faculty has decided (because of a host of reasons I will not delve into) to move the dates for summer lab. They just told us today that summer lab will now be during the summer 1 session only. Now this may be ok for future students; yet, by them throwing this on the students who are scheduled to take this course in 2010, they have eliminated our opportunities to do an internship, study abroad, etc. Several of us have already had internships lined up and are in the process of interviewing with companies (including top Fortune 500 companies). Those students must now tell the companies that they will not be able to intern with them. This is more detrimental than it at first seems, because work experience is vital. Also, many companies express how they hire a large percentage of their interns for full time positions. By us not doing an internship, we are decreasing our chances of full time employment tremendously. Now the financial burden is increased exponentially.
- The financial costs of the course itself (plus residence for 5 weeks).
- The direct money (opportunity cost) that will not be made from a potential internship.
- The decreased chance of full time employment by “x” company.</p>
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<p>This is a legitimate gripe, and you all should complain loudly to the higher ups… This is the summer before graduation, therefore intern placement is vitally important to possible future permanent employment. </p>
<p>As for the costs…that’s part of being a chem eng’r major…clearly spelled out in the undergrad catalog that everyone gets very early on. Frankly, some schools’ engineering programs state that you either have some semesters where you must take 18 credits, or you won’t graduate on time. Often there is a charge for that 17th or 18th credit. </p>
<p>I think Auburn charges extra after the 15th credit. (so extra money spent all the time there). </p>
<p>But, admittedly, there isn’t a living charge when extra credit hours are paid during a semester. I wonder if a deal could be made with the Bluffs to have 4 students share a 2 bedroom for those few weeks. That might be cheaper…or 6 students to share a 3 bedroom. Just a thought…ask housing.</p>
<p>There is an alternative for some of the full scholarship students. You can use a semester’s tuition for summer if you take 12 credits during the summer. This probably is only somewhat viable for someone who came in with the right AP credits and can fix their schedule that way. I don’t know if NM kids can also use a semester’s housing the same way.</p>
<p>Another thing is that UA Engineering is very generous with engineering schollies for many students ( I realize only certain ACTs get this $$$). Many eng’g students are given $2500 per year in addition to their university schollies. That more than pays for this whole thing. </p>
<p>No one should be complaining that they might have to pay for “some” of their education. Getting a four year degree and only having to come up with a few thousand dollars over the entire 4 years is NO BIG DEAL… </p>
<p>As for study abroad opportunities…those can be taken during other summers.</p>
<p>But…you’re right to be annoyed at the change in dates and how they affect internship opps.</p>
<p>Even though the chem eng’g dept probably thought that they’ve given you a lot of notice, they didn’t think this through…the dates need to go back to starting right after spring ends (this isn’t good for any class, not just “YOURS”). Those who made this decision must be strongly confronted about how this decision will negatively affect rising seniors the year before they graduate.</p>
<p>UAprophet …</p>
<p>When you have an issue like this, deal with it in an appropriate manner Making a thread with this title and putting forth such statement is very similar to how you handled the tuition increase. If you think that any college that you might pick would be completely “hassle free,” you’re terribly naive and perhaps not ready for the corporate world, either. There is no “perfect college” (or job) because humans run these operations.</p>
<p>As for this problem… Get the affected people together and confront those who made this decision. </p>
<p>You and your friends should write a concern to the Crimson White. If it’s well-written, concise, and doesn’t sound whiney, it will lilkely get published. (The above would need a major overhaul).</p>
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<p>Since apparently attacking other posters is okay now, I’m very suspicious as to how you have the time to respond to every single thread all hours of the work day. I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’.</p>
<p>yes, the summer thing sounds like a pain.</p>
<p>but you are a whiner uaprophet.</p>
<p>i think if you are getting free tuition/housing, then you should be glad is all you have to pay for is this. complaining about having to pay 2000 and some housing for your college is … well … greedy. </p>
<p>mom had some good suggestions.</p>
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<p>Wow, that does sound like a hot mess. Summer Lab has been a contentious issue for a while. You are correct that the Dean is not a fan of it (for some of the reason you enumerated). Sometimes I get the feeling that the Dean is not the fan of the department, period. Did you know they are taking away Bevill 162 from the department and, to my knowledge, not providing a replacement?</p>
<p>[To those not the know, the college has taken away one to the CHE department’s two undergraduate computer lab/lounges (the other being a pathetically undersized room - room with 10 computers for a department with ~250 undergraduates). Now the college is taking away a computer classroom/lab (the aforementioned BE 162) that was equipped with donations from a chemical engineering alum for use by chemical engineers, and not providing a replaced.]</p>
<p>Anyway, back to Summer Lab. I’m sure you realize that the faculty and alumni board are adamant that Summer Lab stay. (As a Summer Lab alum myself, I whole-heartedly agree.) But they also under a lot of pressure from Dean Karr to cut costs. He is one who is orchestrating this whole mess. I would strongly suggest you take these grievances from your class to him directly.</p>
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<p>Complaining that a full tuition scholarship doesn’t cover the tuition of all required classes to graduate doesn’t sound greedy to me at all. It sounds like false advertising has been perpetrated.</p>
<p>well, if i understood mom’s post, engineering students get 2500 bucks in addition to full scholarship, so it seems that the summer class should pretty much be taken care of.</p>
<p>but whatever. i would be glad to have to pay only a small portion of the total cost of college.</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>Not every eng’g student gets that, but many do… 
Certain ACT is required…and maybe also good GPA</p>
<p>The NMF and Presidential schollies all pretty much get the eng’g scholly too, since nearly anyone who’d get one of those would have the stats for eng’g scholly too…very, very few exceptions…so those who are complaining, are complaining about not much in the way of cost. </p>
<h2>The legit concern is how the schedule change affects internships…</h2>
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<p>The Presidential scholarship (which is granted by UA) clearly states that the scholly is for 8 semesters. </p>
<p>The Chem E degree clearly states that it has a summer requirement. </p>
<p>The UA scholarship cannot “cover” every nuance that every major might require.</p>
<p>The requirement of the summer 5 credit course is clearly spelled out in the Undergraduate Catalog which should be the “school bible” for any student :)</p>
<p>Being from out of state, that is a bit troubling. That looks to be about a $6000 summer, for oos students. Something to think about if my daughter chooses the engineering route.</p>
<p>From the way I see it, the Engineering Department decided to better schedule a required class. Yes, they should have given a year’s notice, but they didn’t, I’d be mad about that too. </p>
<p>Engineering at UA is quite different from other majors in that it has different core requirements, a required summer course, and often involves work experience of some sort. The general university scholarships are geared towards the traditional 4 year, 120 credit majors, so this poses problems for engineering majors, which is probably part of the reason why engineering majors can get departmental scholarships relatively easier than those with other majors. Like previously said, that scholarship “pays” for the summer class , which will now be cheaper for students because it only lasts one summer term (some students do sub-lease apartments over the summer too).</p>
<p>As for not knowing the requirements, I don’t get how that is possible with mandatory advising, degree planning software, and course guide(s) (which is how the university informs students of academic requirements, even if students don’t read it) not to at least have an idea of your degree requirements.</p>
<p>As for summer tuition, it is expensive for OOS students. For a cost similar to a normal semester, there is a 12 credit max. Unlike Auburn, UA does not grant instate tuition to full-tuition scholarship recipients. From what I’ve heard, UA would like to expand it’s summer offerings, but doesn’t due to lack of interest. I know some universities wave OOS fees in summer; I would like to see the same at UA, but it hasn’t happened.</p>
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[QUOTE=feenotype]
Since apparently attacking other posters is okay now, I’m very suspicious as to how you have the time to respond to every single thread all hours of the work day. I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’.
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<p>Yeah, but the thing about my mom is, she has no life.</p>
<p>Love ya mom.</p>
<p>(By the way, you need to learn how to quote people on this site.)</p>
<p>To the OP:
Just so my post has some sort of relevance to the topic at hand, have you considered explaining the situation to the scholarship office – that the summer class you’re taking is required for your major? (It’s possible you answered this already, so I’m sorry in advance if you did.) I can’t guarantee results, but at least if they’re made aware of the problem, they might be open to a solution that will ease your financial burden a little bit.</p>
<p>SEA_tide
“Unlike Auburn, UA does not grant instate tuition to full-tuition scholarship recipients.”"</p>
<p>Unless I got some bad information from the Auburn Scholarship office, they do not give in state tuition to OOS full-tuition shcolarship recipients.</p>
<p>How does UA ChemE deal with engineering students who have ROTC commitments that summer?</p>
<p>Does the Aero dept have a similar requirement?</p>
<p>Prophet, </p>
<p>I sympathize with you, however, is this really the best way to solve the problem? One day, when you are far away from UA, you will miss it, and realize that thought it wasnt perfect, it is your alma mater, and a placer you still care about. Please stop trying to make UA look bad. It shows vindictiveness. There are better ways to handle this. Im glad you discussed this w Dr. Witt. Dont let up. Be in their face if you have to, but dont damage your school out of anger. Your degree’s worth is dependent on your school’s rep, and you are only hurting yourself and your future fellow alumni.</p>
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<p>I just checked the Undergrad Catalog…</p>
<p>I don’t see that summer req’t for any of the other engineering programs. Therefore, those in Elec. Eng, Aero, Civil, Computer, etc…DON’T have the summer req’t.</p>
<p>So…this summer req’t is only for Chem Eng majors.</p>
<p>That said…I do think the Chem Eng department SHOULD put heavy pressure on UA to NOT charge OOS rates to its Chem Engineering students who must take that summer session. That is ridiculous, especially in light of the fact that the school is encouraging OOS students to accept their scholarship offerings. I realize that UA Eng’g is giving $2500 per year schollies to those who are OOS that qualify for Presidential, but still that OOS for summer is too much for this required summer class for Chem E.</p>
<p>I think this is one of those things where being the squeaky wheel will get the grease.</p>
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<p>Does the Aero dept have a similar requirement?
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<p>Don’t know how Chem E handles ROTC…good question!!! Maybe I’ll ask.</p>
<p>Aero doesn’t have that requirement…ONLY chem E does.</p>