<p>Can some current students please shed some light on the different chemistry courses? Pros, cons? S got a 4 on the AP test as a sophomore and hasn't had chemistry since. S wants to be pre-med. Any advice?
Thank you.</p>
<p>There has been extensive discussion on this board regarding this so I might as well summarize my understanding of it. </p>
<p>There are usually 3 course sequences for premed:</p>
<p>1) Chem 31-151-152-(32). Chem 32 would be optional. This is probably the most popular sequence because it’s designed to be a one-sequence-fits-most kind of thing. It’s for premeds whose general chemistry foundation is shaky or requires more than a refresher but also tries to get students to finish organic chem as quickly as possible. Whether or not one takes Chem 32 is dependent on if he/she needs that extra gen chem credit, those premeds without AP Chem credit would need it, those that have AP credit do not. </p>
<p>2) Chem 43-151-152. Designed for those who a) do not want to dive into orgo straightaway b) has a fairly good understanding of gen chem (5 on AP Chem) but is just a bit rusty (aka took it a long time ago) c) needs a refresher in gen chem. </p>
<p>3) Chem 151-152-(32). Design for those that want to go into orgo immediately (most likely a gunner), has AP Chem credit, and do not require any more gen chem (having taken it recently and done very well). Chem 32 is optional depending on whether the student wants to take that or a higher inorganic chemistry course instead, but in almost all cases another inorganic chemistry course (not biochem) will be needed after Chem 152. </p>
<p>That should cover almost everything I think?</p>
<p>Edit: w00t #2000!</p>
<p>Note: I’m basing the above recommendation on the fact that premed requires 1 year (2 semesters) of gen chem with lab.</p>
<p>Thanks very much.</p>
<p>I know I’ve asked about this before, but there’s still one (or two) thing(s) I don’t think I completely understand. I’ve heard from a few students that if you got a 5 on the AP chem exam, you’re not allowed to take Chem 31 in the fall of freshman year. Is this true? I emailed the director of pre-health this exact question, but he hasn’t gotten back to me yet, so I was wondering if anyone here knew the answer for sure.</p>
<p>Also, I’ve heard that back when Chem 43 was called Chem 23, it wasn’t especially helpful and was not the best class to take if you wanted a gen chem refresher. Has the curriculum been revamped since? Is Chem 43 still a class that is taught with an e-book and provides only a shaky gen chem foundation, or has it become a much more solid gen chem refresher over the years? Would some of you mind talking about your experiences taking this course vs. some of your friends who might have taken orgo fall freshman year (the main argument I’ve heard against orgo is that the competition is tough, while the argument for it is generally that the curve is amazing)?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>I’ll contribute what I know:</p>
<p>1) I don’t think a 5 on AP Chem will prevent you from taking Chem 31. There’s no such policy listed on ACES. Instead of emailing the prehealth advisor, though, you should probably email the course lecturers Dr. Oas or Dr. Craig directly and ask since they would know this much better. If it comes down to it and you really want to take chem 31, you can always just decline your AP Chem credit. As always, you should check with either the course director or chem department. </p>
<p>2) I took Chem 23 so I don’t know anything about 43. But I thought Chem 23 was pretty good in terms of refresher the basic concepts like kinetics, equilibrium, reaction mechanisms and stuff. There was definitely a physical textbook for that course (written by Chang I think). </p>
<p>Back when I took gen chem, Chem 21 was a lot of really basic stuff like balancing equations and stuff and I thought chem 23 really hit the sweet spot in terms of not dwelling too much on the basic stuff and actually refreshing some of the harder concepts. </p>
<p>Nowadays, Chem 31 has a lot of similarities to Chem 23 back then in terms of its philosophy of selecting what materials are covered in class so I’m not exactly sure how Chem 43 is different in that respect. Sorry. </p>
<p>As for the freshmen orgo curve being amazing I wouldn’t go that far, it’s probably a half letter grade better curve than regular orgo. Compared to some of the gunners I’ve seen in that class, personally I didn’t think that small advantage is worth it. But to each his own.</p>
<p>I talked to an academic advisor and she told that if you take Orgo, then you can take Biochem later, and your AP Credit + Biochem 227 together will count as the 1 year of general chem needed for most med schools.</p>
<p>She also told me that Chem 43 is Chem 31 and Chem 32 in one semester.</p>
<p>I’ll respectfully have to disagree. </p>
<p>I know for a fact that several of the top medical schools do not consider biochem to be a substitute for general or inorganic chemistry. Instead, biochem can substitute for 1 semester of orgo (and some of them require a lab too). </p>
<p>For example,</p>
<p>Harvard Medical School: [Harvard</a> Medical School: Requirements](<a href=“http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=requirements]Harvard”>http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=requirements)
Johns Hopkins: [Requirements[/url</a>]
Washington University in St. Louis: [url=<a href=“http://medschool.wustl.edu/pages/?page=stm-generalinfo]Information”>http://medschool.wustl.edu/pages/?page=stm-generalinfo]Information</a> for Prospective Medical Students](<a href=“http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/admissions/md/process/requirements.html]Requirements[/url”>http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/admissions/md/process/requirements.html)
Weill Cornell Medical College: [Medical</a> Education at Weill Medical College of Cornell University | Admissions](<a href=“http://www.med.cornell.edu/education/admissions/app_req.html]Medical”>http://www.med.cornell.edu/education/admissions/app_req.html)</p>
<p>There are other schools that don’t care but require two years of chemistry with lab:</p>
<p>Columbia: <a href=“http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/ps/admissions/apply.html[/url]”>http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/ps/admissions/apply.html</a>
Stanford: [Admissions</a> - Education - Stanford University School of Medicine](<a href=“http://med.stanford.edu/md/admissions/preparation.html]Admissions”>http://med.stanford.edu/md/admissions/preparation.html)
University of Chicago (Pritzker): [Admissions:</a> Entrance Requirements | Pritzker School of Medicine](<a href=“http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/requirements/]Admissions:”>http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/requirements/)
Baylor College of Medicine: <a href=“http://www.bcm.edu/admissions/index.cfm?PMID=2323[/url]”>http://www.bcm.edu/admissions/index.cfm?PMID=2323</a></p>
<p>So yeah, since biochem doesn’t have a lab, you have to make sure you get those labs done. Otherwise, you might find yourself ineligible for some of the top schools in the country and have to do a postbacc or summer classes or something.</p>
<p>One more thing to note: your course plan will apparently work for Duke School of Medicine (<a href=“http://dukemed.duke.edu/modules/ooa_applicant/index.php?id=21[/url]”>http://dukemed.duke.edu/modules/ooa_applicant/index.php?id=21</a>), however in that case, biochem is no longer optional but required. </p>
<p>And I don’t think Chem 43 is Chem 31 and 32 together. It was true that before the curriculum revamp, Chem 23 is the equivalent of Chem 21+22. But Apparently they redesigned the Chem 32 course as a class that deals with filler topics that do not crop up in the standard gen chem fundamental concepts.</p>
<p>Great, thanks for the information SBR! So from your experience, how did you find Chem 43 (or 23, rather, since that was the course you took) in terms of difficulty? I’ve heard that as a pre-med, you should generally protect your GPA at all costs, but I also wouldn’t want to take a class that’s too boring.</p>
<p>I thought Chem 23 wasn’t as hard as orgo but definitely harder than regular chem 21. </p>
<p>As for protecting your GPA, I think I gave that advice (or something similar?). I’ll amend myself by saying that it should not be the overriding concern in all cases. Set yourself a target GPA or something of that sort for the year or all 4 years and give yourself some leeway. But do keep an eye on things. </p>
<p>As for not taking a boring class, you’ll probably end up doing something like that sooner or later at Duke but I agree, if I thought the class will be boring and have a choice to not take it I probably wouldn’t either.</p>
<p>Oh, thanks for pointing that out SBR. I’m glad I found out now rather than later. I guess it looks like I can’t get out of taking chem 32! And yeah, it didn’t sound right when she told me that Chem 43 was Chem 31 and 32 put together. Is advising generally good at Duke? Because I remember she specifically told me that Harvard would take the AP credit and Biochem as 1 year of gen chem. It’s kind of scary to think that these people can give you wrong advice. Then again, she wasn’t a pre-med advisor, just a regular one (some sort of dean, I think?)</p>
<p>So just to clarify, all of these schools will take an AP Credit as one semester of gen chem, right? (I looked at the links, but some of the terminology, like Chicago’s, confused me).</p>
<p>And thank you very much for the links.</p>
<p>You are welcome. </p>
<p>As for AP Credit, I’ve yet to come across a school that doesn’t take AP Credit for the intro sciences. Despite what I said above about how biochem doesn’t exactly get you out of gen chem as a rule, most schools do look favorably on AP credits, especially if you can show that you used the extra time to take advanced classes that are not necessarily required. Many of those schools I mentioned above have something like that on their requirements page. Biochem would be a great example of such an advanced class. I was just emphasizing that there are some requirements (such as lab time) that just cannot be ignored or substituted.</p>
<p>Thanks again for all this advice. Just out of curiosity, are you a senior at Duke? You seem very knowledgeable about all this.</p>
<p>I graduated 4 weeks ago.</p>
<p>SBR actually helped me a year ago on intro chem class to duke, so I might be able to shed more light.</p>
<p>After careful deliberation, I actually chose to take Chem 43L, it is essentially the same as Chem 31 with a few more topics (It used the same textbook, Zumdahl) and just covered a few more chapters, the interesting thing was after the final midterm, Professor Theirien covered Biochemistry, amino acids, protein structure. The class was heavily based on problem solving and not as much theory, esp with thermodynamics. Overall the class isn’t that hard, its hard than Chem 31, but yes in many situations the Chem dept. tried to boot people out of Chem 31 if they received a 5 on the AP test. </p>
<p>Chem 151 isn’t that bad as well, but one thing I would keep in mind is that the best and the brightest are in the class and the curve for both Chem 43 and 151 are the same (B/B+) so be weary that you have to do very well in Chem 151 in order to get an A. Either situation would require you to work hard, personally taking 151 frees up space to take other classes down the road, but 43 is a safer option in that you have a Gen chem course in the bag, thats pretty much what it comes down to.</p>
<p>Is it possible to take Chem 43 without having AP/IB credit? I am only considering this because I do have a fairly comprehensive backround in general chemistry from a solid high school course (IB, but SL = no credit at Duke; HL not offered) and independent study, so I doubt the coursework will be overly daunting.</p>
<p>I honestly don’t think it will be too much work. I knew somebody that took the course without taking any AP/IB equivalent level Chem and received an A. He was a very smart person, the thing you have to worry about it getting professor permission to enroll since you won’t have the pre-req. Just email the professor and see where it goes. The other thing you can do, is if you don’t do to well after the first midterm you can always drop back down to Chem 31.</p>
<p>i am interested in taking chem 43 since i took 2 years of chemistry in high school and scored a 4 on my AP exam. i will be pre med and i know this covers one of two “general chemistry courses with laboratory” required for medical school admissions… since i am doing this in order to take orgo in the spring, where will i get my other gen chem requirement?</p>
<p>A 4 on AP Chem is enough to get you Chem 18 credit. That might be enough to count for the other half of your gen chem requirement. You should check with a pre-health advisor to be sure though.</p>
<p>for a lot of med schools the credit of Chem 19/18 is enough according the first year pre-health advisors, but they def. recommend taking bio chem on top of that because it also can act as a semester of gen chem (although it has no lab), but as SBR said talk with your pre health advisor.</p>
<p>No biochem is not guaranteed to act as a semester of gen chem, and without a lab, it’s even more risky to rely on that. See my post #7 on the first page of this thread where I point out a couple well known med schools and how they view biochem or chemistry without labs.</p>