<p>Title of the thread says it all since today I learned that getting a Chemistry Ph. D means screwing up your life. Before I realized this, I always wanted to do research in chemistry and become a chemistry professor, but after google searching, I learned that people with Ph. D in chemistry are exploited and ended up being unemployed, even in their 40s and 50s. Moreover, even after graduating with a Ph. D, these graduates are still suffering doing post-doctorates. I am just wondering about how widespread is this and if I should just find a different career path.</p>
<p>A Ph. D. is definitely not worth it. There is a reason that most Ph. D programs now a days are populated with Chinese, Koreans, Indians, and E. Europeans on student visas and that native born Americans are a shrinking minority there. It is a real bad deal. 5 to 7.5 years of being a cheap teacher and lab tech earning $15k and working 10 hour days including weekends. Then you end up post-docing for 35k then your career dead ends often.</p>
<p>Science is set up for maximum exploitation and abuse of people from BS/MS level jobs that pay less than a garbage man, to the grad/post-doc system. There are tons of other fields out there that reward intelligence and hard work rather than abuses it.</p>
<p>Do pharm school if you love chemistry. Also, Med, dental, and optometry are good. Heck, 2 years for a MSA and you can be on the road to 6 figures in accounting if you get the CPA later. However, do yourself a huge favor and stay the heck away from science.</p>
<p>[Women</a> in Science](<a href=“http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science]Women”>Women in Science)
[Voting</a> with their Wallets](<a href=“http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/12/voting-with-their-wallets/]Voting”>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/12/voting-with-their-wallets/)</p>
<p>While I do think it is an uphill battle, those articles are completely biased and factually untrue. The data on Berkeley for example is not accurate. And I just looked it up- most of the faculty at my university in chemistry are young white folks. Unlike the story told in that first article, the vast majority of faculty that come up for tenure actually succeed in getting it. And so on. Not to mention, never have most people gone into academia to make money- if that is your focus, there has never been a good time to choose a PhD. If you love pharmacy or accounting, go for it, but they are entirely different occupations with entirely different attributes than a research scientist. </p>
<p>The general message is one to heed- the odds are quite low you will get a tenure track job some time in the future because almost anyone can get a PhD but that doesn’t mean there are jobs available. But at the same time, please take what you read with a gigantic grain of salt. The flip side is that if you do, it is THE BEST job in the world if you are in it for the love of your field and the lifestyle.</p>
<p>Check out the new Professional Science Masters degrees:
[Science</a> Masters > ScienceMasters Home](<a href=“http://www.sciencemasters.com/]Science”>http://www.sciencemasters.com/)</p>
<p>Although I have my hearts on being a physical chemist, I guess I have to choose economic stability over pursuit for knowledge, which I dream of doing. Since that is the case, I will just enjoy doing lab work as an undergraduate chemistry major. Thanks for the comments.</p>
<p>^How successful is PSM though?</p>
<p>As I understand it, the PSM is relatively new. So, it’s too soon to tell. A number of schools already have started PSM degrees, however.</p>
<p>It does seem hopeful when I read the news items.</p>
<p>I really don’t see much hope in science in the USA.
H1-b’s are being imported like crazy and jobs are being exported.
Wages go down and down and science staff have been relegated to permatemp status.
State and Local govts are laying off followed closely by pharma and chemical plants are closing down at a fast pace and environmental regulations make opening new ones too prohibitive.
Almost everyone I know who graduated with science degrees are doing far worse than those that graduated with business degrees like accounting and finance and are struggling to find a stable and viable career.</p>
<p>A lot of what has been said about the chemistry PhD is true, but there’s more to it than just that. Any graduate program in science will give you a much deeper appreciation for what you know and what you don’t know (and to be honest, with a bachelor’s degree you know pretty much nothing). In grad school you have to balance teaching, taking classes, and doing research, and you somehow have to survive the demands of all three. Also, grad school is a different kind of academic experience than you’ve ever had before. All your life, graduation has been a date on a calendar. In grad school that’s no longer the case. You graduate when you finish. If you take a few weeks off in the summer to go visit friends and family, you push your graduation date back a few weeks. If you get demoralized and start slacking off, your graduation date starts fading into the future (or to eternity). Overall, a PhD program ends up being more about personal growth than about professional development.</p>
<p>And given the ever-changing job market, a PhD in chemistry does open a lot of doors. My old advisor used to call a PhD a union card. It meant you were one of the club and could be trusted. Crime labs are increasingly hiring PhD’s because of the credibility they bring to the witness stand. Bu mainly you come out of the experience a different person with different capabilities.</p>
<p>Pretty much everyone I went to grad school with hated it, but when it’s over they’re glad they did it. I would say there are two good reasons for getting a PhD in chemistry: 1) you’re committed to getting a particular job which is impossible without it, or 2) you have a personal reason for achieving it, and any future employment issues are secondary to that.</p>
<p>this comes up every so often. here’s my brain vomit:</p>
<ol>
<li>if you want money, go chase money. be an accountant. go into merges&acquisitions. whatever. There’s nothing wrong with wanting money.</li>
<li>i have trouble believing that people with strong analytic skills (re: physical chemists) would have trouble getting jobs to make ends meet. I’m not talking BMWs and steak, but food on the table and roof over the head.</li>
<li>you shouldn’t be losing any money going for a phd. the school should pay enough for you to live on. you could be losing money in the sense that you could make more money in industry, but then you wouldn’t be doing the research you love (and if you can do the research you want in industry, go to industry?!)</li>
<li>professor-ships are strongly against you. not in your favor. </li>
<li>if you don’t want a job to get out-sourced, find out what can’t be outsourced. Missile guidance systems aren’t going to be outsourced to China any time soon. </li>
<li>I don’t know finance/accounting and stuff so I ask this question: what is stopping those jobs from being out sourced? honestly. </li>
<li>you don’t have to be in a phd program/academia to learn about science. work a 9-5, go home. at 6, read the largest article in science/nature/whatever journal you like. </li>
<li>for whatever reason in science, a master’s degree isn’t seen as an accomplishment. in my neck of the woods, it’s seen as a consolation prize for those that couldn’t handle the full PhD program. keep this in mind.</li>
</ol>
<p>EDIT:
9. everyone get’s exploited. if you are flipping burgers, the managers exploit you. if you work in IB, 120 hour weeks is how you get exploited. it’s called capitalism. particularly if you want to get to the top.
10. get a PhD because you want to. If the Universe was going to end 10 days after you got your PhD, would you say
A. darn. I loved the universe. At least I got my PhD. or B. ARG I COULDN’T MAKE BUTT LOADS OF MONEY AND BUY MORE JUNK. ?</p>
<p>I’m not after loads of money either. I’d be quite happy with $50k and benefits. </p>
<p>However, I work for a major food conglomerate and they pay $20 an hour no benefits (via temp agency) for a MSc. and 5 years experience. That is actually the best offer I received which was why I took it. I turned down tons of positions that paid $12 to $15 and still receive calls several times a week from staffing agencies about other jobs. All the jobs in science around here are controlled via staffing/contracting agencies and have no or joke benefits. Every so often there is a direct hire position and they are flooded with applicants and usually they are able to make such insane demands of candidates and it is impossible to compete (most of those don’t pay much better but do have benefits).</p>
<p>The only exception is the federal govt. However, getting a federal job is very difficult because everyone especially in science wants one and thus it is very very competitive. I’ve been trying for years.</p>
<p>I finally come to the conclusion that I need to get completely out of science just to make ends meat and am going back for an MSA to transfer into accounting next fall. I really have no love for science left anyways it’s been very thoroughly beaten out of me. </p>
<p>I really have nothing positive to say about a career in science and think anyone with the IQ and work ethic necessary for this field should stay as far away as possible, and that American companies who treat science workers like trash should just get bent.</p>
<p>Here is another good article
<a href=“miller-mccune.com”>miller-mccune.com;
<p>The job market for chemists depends dramatically on your specialty.</p>
<p>Academia is a tough market to crack.
Industrial jobs in anything green-energy-related are golden right now (the problem is: in order to get one of these jobs, you had to decide on this field of study 6-7 years ago. Good luck with the crystal ball!)</p>
<p>However, steer clear of organic/medicinal chemistry for the next 20 years or so. With the bloodbath in the pharmaceutical industry over the past 5 years, this segment is pretty much dead for the forseeable future…</p>
<p>This DEPENDS. I came from the pharmaceutical industry, and almost every PhD we had in the chemistry department ::highly:: advised me to stay absolutely away from getting a PhD in chemistry. The job market for PhDs is absolutely brutal because there is a vast oversupply for the number of jobs available. If your dream is to work in industry carrying out chemistry experiments in a lab, you do NOT need a PhD, a BS or MS will suffice, and in many cases, a MS is the best overall degree. Many companies would rather high MS candidates with experience over PhDs because they can carry out the same experiments PhDs can. Heck, even with only a BS, I was doing PhD level chemistry in the lab almost every single day. PhDs these days run the risk of an almost never ending quest to find a permanent job, or are constantly jumping all over the place from post doc to post doc. Sorry, that just isn’t the life for me. Again this highly depends on a number of critical factors. </p>
<p>-What field of chemistry? A PhD in analytical chemistry is much more employable and pretty much always in demand rather than a PhD in physical/theoretical chemistry. There are vaaaaast amounts of synthetic organic chemist PhDs. They are a dime a dozen. You an get away with a PhD in organic if you find the right niche though.</p>
<p>-Do you want to start your own business? If so, then OK a PhD might be worth it</p>
<p>-Do you want to work in academia or government lab? Ok, a PhD might be worth it. </p>
<p>I really don’t understand the “presitge” people are trying to chase by earning a PhD if they are just going to work in industry. No one cares if you have Dr. in front of your name. Have you ever seen a corporate pay scale? BS + 10 yrs experience = MS + 4-6 yrs experience= PhD + 0 experience. That’s right, in the corporate world, a BS with enough experience gets treated like a PhD. One of the best and absolutely brilliant chemists I have ever met in my life was only a BS. He gained ridiculous amounts of chemistry knowledge and lab experience just by working.</p>
<p>Also consider this: the chemical industry in the US has lost almost 47,000 over the past several years. The chemical industry is absolutely brutal right now and may never rebound with the vast amount of work being shipped to China and India. Another poster had it right. Stay FAR AWAY from organic/medicinal chemistry. The Pharma industry is in shambles and won’t rebound for years to come. Physical chemists are probably the least employable type of chemists in industry, unless they have vast amounts of knowledge in analytical methods/instruments or computational experience. If you want to do physical chemistry, I would much rather recommend you move to something like materials science. I got paid over $50 k w/ benefits in the pharma industry and had just a BS. You do NOT need a Phd if that is all you are aiming for. I got laid off almost 2 years ago, but thankfully am employed now. But guess what? Some of the PhDs that were let go that were my coworkers are STILL looking for a job.</p>
<p>I know EXACTLY what sschoe is talking about through my similar experiences. Finding a chemistry job can be absolutely brutal, and most jobs you come across are low paying and are temporary. Welcome to the reality of the American economy in 2011. Many people are “employed”, but that masks the fact that they are merely temps who are low paid, have no health insurance, and are completely disposable. Several of my ex-coworkers have moved to different fields as well, on to nursing, another to accounting, and me starting all over soon and hopefully moving to engineering.</p>
<p>Is getting into Analytical Chemisty with a B.S. only a good idea?</p>
<p>Also, sschoe2, have you considered getting a M.S in Chemical Engineering?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Depends. If you are going to go the analytical route, make sure you take as many analytical courses as possible as an undergrad AND make sure you get an internship somewhere, anywhere doing analytical chemistry. Employers will only see that you have a BS in chemistry, so you can’t really say that you are specialized in analytical right out of school. You need work experience. If you are good at what you do, then you can advance well doing analytical. I know our BS analytical chemist where I used to work was pulling in close to $80k, but that was of course because he had years of experience and was in charge of all the instruments and the analytical lab. After everyone got laid off, he found a job in a matter of a few weeks. Doing analytical is not an automatic home run either. You could also simply get stuck doing a low paying instrument technician job that makes you travel everywhere. Bioanalytical chemists that are familiar with all of the techniques and instruments seem to have decent prospects, although I’m not 100% sure on that.</p>
<p>Chem Eng has worse growth projections than chemistry. I believe chemistry is listed as 2-3% (slower than average) where ChemE is listed as -2%. Also I am a bit rusty with high level math. I am good through Calc II. Most of the math I do is basic algebra and processing stuff through Excel and making XY scatter plots and regression lines. It doesn’t seem like a good bet.</p>
<p>As for analytical chem, that is exactly what I am talking about. You will get a job either doing wet chem or running the same LC or GC method over and over again day after day for $15/hour no benefits. It is dead end and mind numbing unless someday you get to be a manager which will make your pay slightly less pathetic. </p>
<p>My hope is to either:
- Get into the Fed Govt MS=GS-9 ~$50k regardless of the field BSc= GS-7 ~40k. I have been trying for years though. Everyone wants to work for them especially in science.</p>
<ol>
<li>Go into accounting. Same deal as quant chem. Compile and work with numerical data and manipulate it in Excel and write reports. The difficulty is in the regulatory aspects.</li>
</ol>
<p>^What do you mean by GS-9 and GS-7?</p>
<p>General Schedule that is the Federal Government’s most frequent civilian pay system.</p>
<p>General schedule has grades and each grade has steps and the whole table is adjusted based on where you are. A GS grade 9 in Chicago is $52k whereas in Indianapolis it is only $47k. When hired you generally start out at step one and each year you get either a grade increase for entry level jobs or a step increase once you are at full competency (performance level).</p>
<p>You can find the entire table online adjusted for locality here
[2011</a> General Schedule Pay Scale](<a href=“http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html]2011”>http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html)</p>
<p>You can apply at usajobs.com for positions though often you will either have to fax or send in a word copy of your transcripts. Make sure to have a copy of your official college transcripts handy.</p>
<p>If you have an interest in inorganic or physical chemistry, go into Materials Science, it’s basically all inorganic and physical chemistry anyways. The “Materials Science” degree vs. the “Chemistry” degree makes a world of difference when it comes to hiring time.</p>