Chicago vs. Columbia

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
1

<p>So, I applied for transfer to Columbia this year, from Illinois at Urbana. Yet, from hanging out with people at UChic lately, I've sort of come to realize that that school really has the sort of atmosphere I'm looking for. I was wondering what, if anything, people know about the differences between Chicago and Columbia, what separates them, seeing as to how they're both highly respected schools in the poorer regions of their respective cities, what differences are rumored to exist in student attitude towards life, atmosphere, academics, etc etc.</p>

<p>This isn't for anything overly serious, I'm just sort of curious. Although, if I don't get to transfer this year, I might apply to UChic next year -_-.</p>

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<p>If you think Columbia is in a "poorer region" of New York City, you either (a) have another think coming, or (b) live in the world of Gossip Girl. You could walk from Columbia to the bottom of Manhattan and never see a block where you could buy anything for less than $1 million. Sure, Columbia is not far from Harlem (a rapidly gentrifying place), but where it is is Morningside Heights, firmly part of the Upper West Side, an area that is "poorer" only than the Upper East Side, Beverly Hills, and maybe a few neighborhoods in London and Tokyo.</p>

<p>So that's one of the differences. Columbia is in a really rich area.</p>

<p>Another difference: Because Columbia is in a really rich area, few students can afford to live off campus. So almost everyone lives in university housing.</p>

<p>It is easier to get on public transportation from Columbia and to go anywhere in New York than it is to go anywhere in Chicago from Chicago. As a result, despite everyone living there, on-campus life at Columbia seems perhaps a little more anemic than at Chicago.</p>

<p>For a completely different sort of difference, read the New Yorker article about Nadia Abu el-Haj by Jane Kramer a few weeks ago. It makes Columbia seem like just about the most unpleasant place imaginable. The teacher in question was both thoroughly popular and noncontroversial at the University of Chicago, much to its credit.</p>

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<p>This doesn't help distinguish Chicago from Columbia, but on JHS's note, one of the foremost "anti-zionist"* scholars, John Mearsheimer, is on faculty at Chicago, and was invited by the Chicago Friends of Israel, a student zionist group on campus, to give a talk.</p>

<p>The Maroon covered the talk and student reactions to it:
Chicago</a> Maroon | Mearsheimer addresses CFI</p>

<p>*Mearsheimer's argument about Israel and the U.S. is fairly nuanced, and to call it "anti-zionist" is an inaccurate oversimplification. One of my good friends, a Jewish political science major, has talked to Mearsheimer on multiple occasions about his book and his stance on Israel, and says that he is sensitive to the difficulties Israelites face as well as criticisms of his argument.</p>

<p>More on Mearsheimer:
John</a> Mearsheimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
Morningside Heights, firmly part of the Upper West Side, an area that is "poorer" only than the Upper East Side, Beverly Hills, and maybe a few neighborhoods in London and Tokyo.</p>

<p>So that's one of the differences. Columbia is in a really rich area.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I don't think so. Morningside Heights is part of the Upper West Side only in the minds of real estate brokers. Actually; it's above it: the Upper West Side goes from 59th to 110th Street, Morningside Heights from 110th to 125th Street, where Harlem begins. (Traditionally, Harlem begins on 96th Street on the East Side.)</p>

<p>The median household income on the Upper West Side is about $72,000, and in Morningside Heights it's about $34,000. (Nothing to do with its being a good or bad neighborhood; it's a question of whether it's "rich," as you put it.) Harlem? $20,000. Current median monthly rent for a studio/1-bedroom apartment? Upper West Side: $1900/$2800. Morningside Heights? $1500/$1900. Harlem? $1225/$1600. </p>

<p>Not rich, in other words. Morningside Heights is no Upper West Side. Or Upper East Side. Or West Village. Etc., etc.</p>

<p>Donna</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
Columbia is in a really rich area.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Have you been to Morningside Heights? You'd get smacked silly for saying something as erroneous as that.</p>

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<p>Umm, have you been there? Recently?</p>

<p>I have no idea what the census tract definition of Morningside Heights or Upper West Side is. If I walk from Columbia to Zabar's on Broadway, it's all of a piece. (That wasn't true 30 years ago, but hasn't been untrue in a long time.) 96th at 5th Avenue and the Park isn't in Spanish Harlem, either.</p>

<p>While real estate brokers can be deceptive, so can census-based neighborhood descriptions. I used to live in a neighborhood defined as "Kingsessing" for all data purposes. It told me that the average home price in my neighborhood was about $40,000. That was true, except that on the block where I lived, it was 3-4 times that -- just like in that "other" neighborhood that officially began across the street from me. The real neighborhood definition and the data one were a few blocks off (which helped disguise somewhat the poverty of the neighborhood I didn't really live in).</p>

<p>And how does rent control, or Columbia subsidization, factor into those median rents? How many rental units ARE there in Morningside Heights, except for a few big buildings several blocks north of Columbia (in which I might not want to live)?</p>

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<p>Driving through the Columbia area, those prestigious brick buildings seem like an anomale in the context of its less glamorous surroundings. Most of the neighborhoods around Columbia have more in common with Harlem than the wealthy Upper West Side apartments.</p>

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<p>Would it be possibly to get this thread back on the rails? That wasn't really the main point of my post, although I do appreciate the discussion :-P.</p>

<p>Thanks to anyone who does give some perspective!</p>

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<p>Both are good schools. Both have the 'core' requirement, which is good, and not to be seen so popular these days. </p>

<p>Since you go college to get educated, I'd check out the majore you intrested in at both schools. And keep the prospect job possibility in mind. </p>

<p>Columbia is not so much of a 'campus' per se. But NYC is certainly not so cold as Chicago. If your perspective majore is in bussiness or marketing majore, it certainly helps that find internship in NYC. And you may even work during school year.</p>

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<p>Goshamoosy--</p>

<p>I hope you understand how difficult (or maybe impossible) it is for somebody like me, who only feels qualified to talk about one school, to talk about another school and I even feel like my knowledge of the school I supposedly know is limited. My knowledge of Columbia is limited to the times I've visited the school as a prospective student, the handful of people I know who attend, the handful of alumni I know, and the one person I know on faculty. I can't draw any conclusions from their experience and their relationship to the school that may be potentially useful to you.</p>

<p>Everything I know about Columbia you probably know yourself. I will add that its campus was designed by McKim, Mead, and White. You probably didn't know that :-P</p>

<p>What's more informative for you and easier for me is if you ask me questions about Chicago, and ask those same questions to Columbia students. Then, I think, you'll get a truer X v. Y comparison.... based on extraordinary selection bias, but better than nothing.</p>

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<p>Ah, yes, forgot to mention ye olde major.</p>

<p>I'm doing physics and/or mathematics. Columbia is appealing because it is a strong physics department with only 20 undergraduates (total!), and so after sophomore year you're basically guaranteed a legit assistant research position.</p>

<p>Unalove, you've definitely got a valid point! So, for questions, I guess I want to ask about sort of general trends for the school, understanding that nothing can be accurately generalized, and that anything you tell me should be taken with a grain of salt and with exceptions in mind. So, what kinds of political tendencies does the student body take (more towards liberal, conservative, apathetic?) How open-minded are students? Do students generally take an interest in matters outside of their own fields of study? What are research opportunities like for undergrads, specifically in the physics and mathematics departments? I know what their website says about research, but it would be interesting to hear what actual students say on the subject. Also, if you or anyone else knows anything on the subject, what's the music program there for non-music majors like? Specifically I'm interested in possibly doing something with piano performace. I know Columbia has a very strong program for non-music major musicians, giving lots of opportunities to perform, master classes, etc. </p>

<p>Man, I haven't even been accepted to Columbia yet (9 days!), yet I'm already worried about this...makes me feel somewhat silly :-P. Yet, I am still curious about the comparisons :-). </p>

<p>Thanks anyone who answers! Unalove, thanks for pointing out that I should probably actually ask some questions :-).</p>

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<p>
[quote]

I'm doing physics and/or mathematics. Columbia is appealing because it is a strong physics department with only 20 undergraduates (total!), and so after sophomore year you're basically guaranteed a legit assistant research position.

[/quote]

Don't put too much hope in getting RA there. It is true that they have very strong physics department. But more than half of their graduate students were international, mostly from asia, usually they are academically strong. And if you don't like politics, the campus is not for you. There is almost always some kind political 'demomstration' going on in campus. Personally, I don't like it.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry if my last post came off as a little bit rude or dismissive, but I think you're beginning to see now how your question was a little bit along the lines of "What's better, chocolate or vanilla ice cream?" in a situation where you haven't had either and the chocolate people have only tasted chocolate and the vanilla people only vanilla. But you get that. On to answering your questions in the best way I can:</p>

<p>--So, what kinds of political tendencies does the student body take (more towards liberal, conservative, apathetic?)</p>

<p>Most students would probably consider themselves liberal, but I also think that most students realize that there are other valid viewpoints out there. A family friend once asked me what one of the most significant things I've learned here so far was, and I answered, "That Republicans aren't necessarily the devil incarnate." That doesn't make me any closer to voting for McCain come election season, but it does make me more sensitive and aware of viewpoints that I personally don't hold.</p>

<p>How open-minded are students? </p>

<p>I'm inclined to think that students tend to be pretty open-minded, as most of them have learned by the virtue of coming here that they aren't the smartest person in the room and that they should question assumptions. I think that students tend to be pretty open-minded socially, too. I see students of all different stripes hanging out with each other, and students who occupied different social positions in the high school sphere come here and become best friends.</p>

<p>Do students generally take an interest in matters outside of their own fields of study? </p>

<p>I definitely do... that's why I wanted a school with Core. I'm interested in just about everything, with the possible exception of learning biology in class, because it's too much memorization for it to be fun. I have a lot of elective credits left before I graduate, and I plan on using them.</p>

<p>What are research opportunities like for undergrads, specifically in the physics and mathematics departments? I know what their website says about research, but it would be interesting to hear what actual students say on the subject. </p>

<p>Physics: A few of my friends have done research at Argonne and FermiLab and have gone on to really sweet PhD programs. </p>

<p>Math: I've heard that our department gives excellent opportunities to undergrads, and I know that Paul Sally works with ugrads over the summer. I don't know any details about the program, sadly, but every math major I know seems to love it.</p>

<p>Also, if you or anyone else knows anything on the subject, what's the music program there for non-music majors like? Specifically I'm interested in possibly doing something with piano performance.</p>

<p>I think Cosmos, who posts here from time to time, is a music major. I know you don't have to be a major to perform in ensembles.</p>

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<p>Well hey, a meaningful reply - at the thread over on the Columbia board, they're still arguing about whether Morningside Heights can be considered to be a "poorer community" compared to the rest of New York and to Hyde Park...</p>

<p>Thanks muchly :-). Your question was not rude or dismissive by any means! You made a very valid point.</p>

<p>Chicago has a Core, too? Hmm, time to check the website, I'll not waste your time by asking you to enumerate the requirements.</p>

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<p>At Chicago, we're fortunate to have some of the best (and most accessible) mathematical summer research opportunities. There are about 80 spots each summer for research. This year, there were 91 applicantions. So you have a great chance to do mathematical research over the summer if you want to.</p>

<p>As for your major, there are a lot of things that you need to understand. I know practically nothing about Columbia's physics/math department, but as it has an engineering school, I assume that Columbia will have an applied tint. You'll be working a lot more with numbers, doing lab work, etc. At Chicago, although you can find applied physics classes, the vast majority of your work will be theoretical - you'll still have to evaluate integrals and the like, but you won't be working too much with strictly numerical analysis. Also, our math department (along with the summer research program I mentioned) is easily the most pure in the country.</p>

<p>Also, there are more than 20 undergraduates in Columbia's physics department, easily. Maybe 200 would be a more accurate figure. A while ago, Princeton supposedly had only 13 math majors in a single class, but I know that that's incorrect because I have math friends at Princeton who say otherwise. Something about declaring a major or something. But anyway, Columbia supposedly has 23% of its student body in engineering, which is equal to over 1000 people. A good portion of these people will have to take advanced physics courses and will probably be majoring in physics as well.</p>

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<p>Goshamoosy, it's a little bizarre that you didn't know Chicago has a Core. I (and probably everyone else) assumed that was why you were asking about Chicago and Columbia: they are the two elite universities with a strong core curriculum. That -- and their urban settings -- pretty much means that there is a huge overlap in the students the two schools attract. The Cores are meaningfully different, though. At Columbia, everyone studies pretty much exactly the same thing at exactly the same time. Chicago has a limited Chinese menu approach, with lots of overlap among the reading lists of some of the courses, but substantial differences in approach. </p>

<p>I reiterate my recommendation that you compare the New Yorker article with the Maroon article on the Mearsheimer talk. The civility (or not) of how explosive issues like that are dealt with on the respective campuses seems like a major difference.</p>

<p>Re: engineering. Columbia has an engineering school separate from the College, with about 300 students per class vs. 1,000 for the College (hence the 23%). The Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science has a different Core than the College. I don't know anything about course overlap.</p>

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<p>Ah! Well I knew that there were required classes (everyone kindasorta has required classes, no?), I just didn't know they were also referred to as a "Core." </p>

<p>This does make Chicago seem marginally more appealing (the more "geeky" nature compared to Columbia, the "chinese menu" core, the theoretical approach to math and physics...). Hmm. Well, if I'm not accepted at any of my transfers this year, I'll probably apply to Chicago next year! I really don't think I can remain sane for three more years at UIUC - I don't mean to sound snobbish, but a lot people are very narrow-minded here. Few people can just sit down and talk about something that doesn't have a direct application to their lives, which in most cases is classes or partying/getting intoxicated. I really feel like I need an institution with more "geekiness", more people like me who are interesting in everything around them, from poetry and music to quantum teleportation and mathematical analysis. Granted, I'll probably find that at any of the schools I applied to transfer to, but just because I'm in Illinois already, and have had the opportunity to talk to more people about UChicago, UofC just seems all that much more appealing and to be more of what I'm looking for in a school.</p>

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<p>From what you describe yourself as wanting, it sounds like there are a lot of liberal arts colleges that would be in your vein.</p>

<p>Also, should you stick it out in Champana, you will probably begin to find your crowd, as you get into more and more advanced classes and join more clubs and such. I think as a general trend, first year tends to be a lot of open-endedness (for better or for worse) about who you are, who your friends are, and what you like to do and who you like to do it with. My second year here has been much more successful than my first socially and academically.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

I really feel like I need an institution with more "geekiness", more people like me who are interesting in everything around them, from poetry and music to quantum teleportation and mathematical analysis.

[/quote]

If thats what you look for. IMO, UofC might more 'fit' you. Columbia is just another ivy. 'They are all alike as far as campus cultural goes'. Which is the main reason my kid attracted to it.</p>

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<p>Unalove, yeah, that's what I have heard from many people, that getting into more advanced courses will help me connect with more interesting people, but it's hard to see that - the people that are succesful here are the ones that ignore the outside world and shut themselves into the narrow corridor of their major, and the people that don't do that are the types whose goals include only getting drunk every night and keeping a GPA above 2.0 to avoid academic probation.</p>

<p>AnotherNJMom: How would you describe the "campus cultural" of the ivies, if they're all the same? I mean, people generally accuse Ivy Leaguers as being rather snobbish, elitist, etc, but quite a few of my friends from high school ended up at Ivies would disagree with such a statement. I'm not presuming that that's what you see the Ivies as being! Just saying that that's what the "word on the street."</p>