Chicken or Egg - College Visit or College App

College Search & Selection
1

<p>My husband and I disagree on how to approach college applications. </p>

<p>He read one (only one) article in USNWR and is now adamant that Son only apply to 9 or fewer schools. </p>

<p>My response: OK, but in order to find the 9 that fit him best, we should visit several more. </p>

<p>Nope. H won’t hear of it. He thinks we should only visit the “final 9” (or fewer) that Son wants to apply to. </p>

<p>I don’t like this idea because if a visit causes him to eliminate one (or more) of those finalists, then the list grows shorter with no option for more visits. </p>

<p>The cost of visiting is not a factor. H is just going overboard on the gospel of what he read. (At least to me. ;))</p>

<p>So, who’s side do you take??? 8-)</p>

2

<p>How about when your son takes colleges off his list he adds another one he has not visited and apply to it without ever seeing it? He can then visit if he is admitted. In my experience, plenty of kids apply to tons of schools they never see until they are admitted, or until they move in. Many seem to do fine at their colleges despite not seeing them before sending in their applications.</p>

<p>As one of my math teachers said "looking at a bunch of buildings doesn't tell you anything about going to college." He wasn't the biggest fan of kids taking off from school junior year to go visit colleges. I agree with him to an extent. Visits, in my experiences, only show you a small picutre of a school. </p>

<p>I also agree with your husband's goal to keep the list of schools small. My mom was hell bent on me getting in to a college better than Maryland that by early December she made my list of possible schools greater than 15. To make matters worse, I had only finished 4 applications by then (thank god for ED acceptances). However, if you have a really picky son, it won't help him to have a list of 4 schools, all reaches. As your son takes schools off, just encourage him to add a few that you think will fit what he is looking for based on your visits.</p>

3

<p>Well, there is not one size that fits all. Every family dynamic and every student desire/need is different. So it depends. </p>

<p>He has a point. To some extent, overkill causes confusion and doesnt resolve anything. But undereffort can also backfire.</p>

<p>We did not visit ALL of the schools we applied to, but we visited ALL of the schools where my D was admitted. </p>

<p>The magic number? That also depends, often on stats. If your son's stats are in the upper echelon (above 1400 SAT on the core sections CR and Math) and his gpa is above 3.8 and he is a wunderkind in EC's or social responsibility and has teachers salivating to write his recommendations, then you can relax a little and visit ONLY those schools where you have (your son has) very high interest in attending. Is that 3,4, 5 schools? You decide. </p>

<p>But if he is in the muddled middle like MOST people (dont judge by comments here on CC) that is between 1200 and 1400, then you probably need to visit more schools than less, and do more research on it. Talk to admissions etc and get a "vibe" on them, and how they "vibe" on you. If he is more interested in state schools, whether in state or out of state, then it is less a problem. The privates are a bit more quirky on applications and the "feel" of the schools varies a great deal. </p>

<p>I am a STRONG proponent of going not necessarily where you can get in that is the most prestigious our highest ranking, but on where you "feel" the best fit. That is a subjective thing. Academic, social, athletic, geographic, weather, food, dorms, preppy or loosy goosy hippy, or whatever. Because where he will be HAPPIEST is where he will thrive and succeed. Of course all 18 year old boys are focused on sports and that hidden agenda of "party central". So be careful to discern his quotient for partying. Avoid party schools if you can. Though college is not just about libraries and books, it has to be a place where he can succeed academically (3.0 or better). If he is getting below a 3.0 in college its likely not the right school for him. </p>

<p>Some people are truly up in the air on where they want to go and wont decide until April when the admission tickets are mailed out. So they apply to 12-15 schools. This is also the case for people on the low end of muddled middle because of an average SAT score, but who otherwise are strong students with a HIGH energy, are self motivating and have a high gpa.....because they want to see where they can get in. Then there are the prestige conscious people who want bragging rights...and we avoid them like a plague of locusts....they are SOOOO annoying. Ugh.</p>

<p>So, if he says 9 schools....that is not bad.....depends on your sons scores and which 9 schools.....are they all reaches? matches? Is your son in the upper muddled middle....1350 eg. or even higher? </p>

<p>College visits are LOADS of fun. If you do them in August...great. But once first semester of Senior year starts..its IMPERATIVE you not be out travelling around because his grades are SUPER important....they will see them. And if he falls....LOOK OUT. And, he must focus on applications and essays. LOTS OF WORK TO DO.</p>

<p>Does that help? Where is your son looking?</p>

4

<p>I never did resolve this issue to my satisfaction, yet my son is doing swimmingly well where he matriculated. Senior year is busy, you run out of time to do visits. Your offspring looks harder with the acceptance in hand. Nothing wrong with second visits either.</p>

5

<p>If you've got the money and time, I'd say visit a few... maybe the most interesting? or the most polarizing?</p>

<p>The goal at this point should be to become excited about applying, or being able to cross a school of your list. If there's a single school your S is focusing on fervently, then apps should be a bit easier; the essay will be more focused because he'll have a greater incentive for doing it.</p>

6

<p>You've told us what you and your husband think. What does your SON think? </p>

<p>After all, he's the one applying to colleges and he will be the one attending the college he ultimately decides on. </p>

<p>If he wants to do more college visits, then go for it. If he feels he has enough information to finalize his list and get started on his applications, then so be it. </p>

<p>He should also be the one calling the shots about how many applications he wants to do (although the caveat would be if your family needs to set a limit on applications due to concerns about application fee costs or his list lacks real safeties).</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
You've told us what you and your husband think. What does your SON think? </p>

<p>After all, he's the one applying to colleges and he will be the one attending the college he ultimately decides on. </p>

<p>If he wants to do more college visits, then go for it. If he feels he has enough information to finalize his list and get started on his applications, then so be it. </p>

<p>He should also be the one calling the shots about how many applications he wants to do (although the caveat would be if your family needs to set a limit on applications due to concerns about application fee costs or his list lacks real safeties).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Excellent points!</p>

<p>Fact is, Son is only a rising junior. He has dipped his big toe in the college search, but hasn't dived (dove?) in all the way. He doesn't have a clue about how many apps or visits he wants. Rest assured we'll ask him and his opinions will count more than ours. In the highly unlikely event that we overrule him, I guess it would only be on a matter of cost or lack of safety(ies). </p>

<p>At this point, H and I are merely trying to come to our own common understanding of how we will support Son. We want to work out our disagreements now so we can have a united front when Son really gets busy finalizing his list on his own. (That will probably this winter, when he's not playing a sport.) Then, in the spring we'll actually start visits.</p>

8

<p>Okay then....lots of time left. Go purchase either Petersens or Barrons directory if you have not. Give it to your son and let him peruse it.....all year long. You can peak at it too. lol. But let him make his list and see what intrigues him and where he fits with his SAT scores and GPA AFTER this year is over. Best of luck.</p>

9

<p>I have to say do the visits. My D knocked 2 schools of the list first 2 visits and now loves one she was really negative about before visiting. remember there is a lot of word of mouth between kids and visiting can counter that. Out of those 9 you would have to have safeties and reaches as well s matches which is hard to do site unseen. My D school advises going to 3 schools near home first, one big, one small maybe urban vs. suburban just to get a sense of what you like before even starting a list.</p>

10

<p>If your son is in a spring sport, or has other big commitments at that time, it is nearly impossible to visit schools between acceptance (generally April 1) and decision time (May 1). April is busy with holidays, AP prep, all kinds of senior year happenings. Airline tickets will be last-minute and more expensive because of it. Don't plan on squeezing in more than a trip or two in that month.
Now, I know your son is just a junior. However, you need to work backwards from senior year in planning, and give the visits the respect they deserve. If a student is applying ED, he needs to have visited that school by the summer before or early fall of senior year. In order to make an ED decision, he'll need to have visited at least some of the competition in order to rule it out.
He should also have visited his safety schools in that time frame, too, in order to get them set in his mind. The schools to visit later in the game are the matches and, finally, the reaches.
The more he gets involved in the process, the better. If he isn't interested yet, make plans for at least a few visits in late winter and spring of junior year.</p>

11

<p>I'm on the mom's side here for several reasons. </p>

<p>My son's high school restricted applications to eight schools (except in cases like the UC's where one application served for several campuses). I don't know exactly how they came up with the number 8 -- and everytime I asked I got a different reason -- but had my son not been admitted to his ED choice, I might have come to blows with the administration over this ridiculously restrictive policy. I don't care if a student wants to apply to one or to one hundred. The decision should be the student's and the family's, not the high school's.</p>

<p>A lot depends the selectivity of the schools that the student is targeting. I'm not in favor of applying to the whole ivy league plus Stanford and MIT as I'm an advocate of fit, but if the student aspires to HYPSM then the student may as well apply to all five (plus some good safeties and matches) because the success rate at the super-selectives can be random and unpredictable.</p>

<p>The point of the balanced list is to feel that you've done your best on the top and bottom ends of the spectrum. Taken some risks, covered your bases so that you can sleep between December and April. If you can do this in 9, fine. If you need 12, go for it. There is no right number.</p>

<p>On to the corollary of how many should you visit to get to a reasonable list -- as a rule of thumb I'd say visits might end up two to one. In the case of safeties, maybe even three or four to one. The prestigious selectives don't really need to be visited. Get in first, then visit. Most likely you'll like them.</p>

<p>The safeties, however, especially those with what I call a "fatal flaw" e.g. too rural, too small, too many women, too cold, too dangerous or whatever sounds unappealing, are essential visits. Some may redeem themselves; some may fall into the not-if-it-were-the-last-college-on-earth category. If you're like most kids/families one or two will actually shine as in "hey, this is a cool place full of smart interesting kids like me!"</p>

<p>My son's experience was as follows. Because we live overseas we knew there would be no follow up visits, so we had to make the most of the one shot experience. His original list was 12 schools. He picked up one because he was in the same city which became a serious contendor. Then, when the originally planned last stop number one choice, turned out to be not at all what was expected, we went over the mountain, like the bear, and found what turned out to be the best of all. Before visiting, it had been x'd off the list. After visiting it rose to #1 ED choice, acceptance and a sterling four years.</p>

12

<p>momrath, were you in the room recording my argument to the brick wall, er, I mean my husband? ;) That's pretty much what I told him.</p>

<p>Just in case anyone is wondering, here's MY list. Way more than 9. Who knows what Son will come up with.</p>

<p>Reaches
UVA
Wm & Mary
Colgate</p>

<p>Matches
Lafayette
Dickinson
Gettysburg
Franklin & Marshall
U of Richmond
Elon
Wake Forest (reach?)</p>

<p>Safeties
Loyola of Maryland
Salisbury University
St. Mary's College of Md (too small?)
Washington College (too small?)
York College of PA
Roanoke</p>

13

<p>Dougbetsy, if you have time over this school year I think it would be great to try to get in visits to schools in each of the reach/match/safety category, and perhaps other categories (large/small, rural/city) as well, to allow your son to figure out what he likes. Since he is just beginning his junior year, he still has lots of time. By spring of junior year, the visits could focus on the schools he is really interested in.</p>

<p>To be honest, as I have read your posts, I've thought that your list and your son's admission profile could change quite a bit over the course of junior year depending on how grades/scores come in. This was the case for both my kids - the list I might have come up with for each of them at the beginning of junior year vs what the list was at the beginning of senior year would have been very different. Given that I think it's too soon to have a hard and fast list of a limited number of schools.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
To be honest, as I have read your posts, I've thought that your list and your son's admission profile could change quite a bit over the course of junior year depending on how grades/scores come in. This was the case for both my kids - the list I might have come up with for each of them at the beginning of junior year vs what the list was at the beginning of senior year would have been very different. Given that I think it's too soon to have a hard and fast list of a limited number of schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I understand and agree. That's one of the reasons we don't mind that he's barely dabbling. But, by the time spring track starts, he'll have his first semester grades and one SAT behind him. With those data and a winter of free time, we hope he'll have a working list.</p>

<p>As for my list, eh, it's just my list. He might take it or leave it. But it sure is fun to search, isn't it?</p>

15

<p>Well.....everyone here has made very good and valid points. A good thread, thus. Also, while its the student's ultimate decision (because it is HIS life after all...though parents have a hard time coming to grips with that), the helicopter parent mentality is not all that bad....I certainly was one. Statistics prove that children of helicopter parents are less likely to get into trouble. That being said, I still STRONGLY suggest that your son be given a copy of Barron's or Petersen's directory to read, reread and contemplate over the next year. He will change his mind a lot of times and see things perhaps he hadnt contemplated. </p>

<p>We ended up, after an Epiphany....in April after acceptances came out...and on a rainy visit day....., at a school that was NOT on the top of our list. </p>

<p>No school is perfect. For every reason FOR a school, you can think of a reason to say NO. And kids this age arent really sure what they want.....or worse they think they know what they want and then get there and say, "uh....I blew it...this is NOT what I want." They can be fickle. </p>

<p>We told our D that unless there was something REALLY serious going on, she had to give her college two years before we would let her transfer. Why? Because we know that after Thanksgiving, the honeymoon is over in freshmen year, the weather changes, they are tired of cafeteria food, tired of dorm drama, papers are due, exams are looming. After Christmas its worse...they have been home for a few weeks of a comfy bed, more sleep, home cookin, etc....and have to go back to the grind in the middle of winter...UGH! But by March....Spring Break looms and they chatter about that, the weather changes, and they become more accustomed to their surroundings. </p>

<p>Our D is a sophomore and CHOMPING at the bit to get back to school.....2.5 months at home this summer cured her of any desire to be under our roof for very long! LOL. And so it goes.</p>

<p>Finally, every year tens of thousands of kids realize they made a mistake....or, they realize that the dream school that rejected them, will now take them in as a sophomore because they dont have to report their scores to their peers...transfers are not included in avg. SAT's and GPA's that all the peer rankings consider. Some even let them come in as Freshmen in second semester. So its not a death sentence or cement shoes. If the school you end up at is simply not you, then you simply take it like a "man" and be mature about it, and work on the transfer. Just make sure its not a tempestuous irrational move based on a personality conflict with a dorm mate or gf (bf) or something ridiculous like that. You cant run from problems in life. </p>

<p>I would be curious to know where momrath's son went to college? Thanks.</p>

<p>As for dougbetsy's list: I think its fine and very rational. Its biased to the Atlantic Coast, but that is also fine. Are you instate Virginia? UVa is a tad easier instate than out of state. William and Mary is always hard to get into because its so small. But its also not everyone's cup of tea. We scratched it off our list. But that is subjective. Both are outstanding schools. For match schools you have good choices. Elon is a gem. I STRONGLY recommend going to their dog and pony show. Its an all day event and they really do a fine job of it. Very, very warm people. They split up parents and students and give you separate tours....for a reason. And its really rather ingenious. Because kids and parents have different questions and interests and wont say things in front of each other that they might say to the admissions counselor alone. They have FABULOUS scholarships and financial aid. (They were all over my D and offered her an outstanding scholarship. In the end, it was too close to home and we turned them down. She declined with a sweet letter...and they wrote back, "while we are disappointed you arent coming, we want you to know you are always welcome here and if you change your mind we will happily reinstate your scholarship." CLASS ACT!) Its a special place. So its high on my list. Wake is one of those schools that could be match or reach....on the line, depending on your scores. But they have gone SAT optional, which is VERY useful for kids with HIGH class rank and gpa who otherwise have a moderate SAT... Wake knows they are strong enough to admit them and they will do well. Plus its a great school, loads of fun...Wake students are all really happy kids. I would ADD Furman University in that bunch as well. A fine school, GORGEOUS campus (like Elon actually), happy and thriving kids, safe campus, NOT a party school..but they have lots of fun and it has an outstanding reputation for professional schools and graduate schools. For safety I would add Clemson, NCState.</p>

<p>Then again, your son may look at them in Barrons (Petersens) and say, NO WAY! LOL. And that is where visits come in.</p>

<p>BTW, where did we end up? NEW YORK CITY of all places! Incredulous! But even on that rainy, windy April day, when we walked on the STUNNING Campus of Fordham University in the Bronx, my D exclaimed, "THIS IS ME!" Then we heard the President of the University give his recruiting speech and it was like, WOW! He is AMAZING. On move in day, he was at the FRONT GATES greeting families as they came in the gate...one by one. He saw us and my D and said, "Hey girl.....I am SO glad to see you. Welcome home!" He remembered her name! Amazing.</p>

<p>So you never know. She had a wonderful year last year. Yes, there was winter freshmen funk. Yes there was dorm drama. But we went up there in February, fluffed up her feathers, took her and her bf to dinner in Manhattan (at our favorite restaurant) and stayed in our favorite hotel and all is well that ends well. She worked her tail end off last year. Fordham is a tough school...old fashioned....they write LOTS AND LOTS of papers....sometimes three a week. But they are very well rounded and very well prepared. </p>

<p>Just another thought for you.</p>

16

<p>I do not think that there is only one way to approach this. I just would not wait until the the summer before senior year to see all of the schools that are on your son's final 9 list. It is too much. He may be working, and may not be able to take 2 weeks to see them all. If he wants to visit while school is in session, he may need to miss too much school. Also, we found that if we saw a bunch of schools at once, they tended to blend together and we had trouble remembering them. I suggest that when you do go that your son keeps a journal about what he liked and did not like, and that he takes pictures of the campus to refresh his memory.</p>

<p>We did eliminate 2 schools after visiting them btw. One we could all agree was a poor fit, and the other school had a layout regarding Greek life that I did not care for, and my son much preferred other schools after he was able to compare it to other choices (while at that school he did like it initially). He just announced that he no longer wanted to apply to that school.</p>

<p>I do not understand why your husband is sticking to a hard and fast rule based upon an article. I think an open mind, and exploring different options is a good thing if one has the time and money to do so. I can understand limiting applications so that they are completed well and thoughtfully. I can also understand adding more applications to the mix under certain circumstances, so I do not agree with sticking to the rigidity of a formula of nine schools only.</p>

17

<p>my parents made me do a toooonnnnn of research before they would let me visit. I ended up only visiting my top two choices. When you think about it, the most important aspect to your decision isn't the campus, but the quality of education and the opportunities presented. They didn't want the campus to influence my decision too much.</p>

<p>After months of researching, they let me visit Brown and Cornell... I'm starting Cornell in the fall.</p>

18

<p>We just returned from a trip to visit two colleges that illustrates the benefits and pitfalls of college visits. D initially was convinced she wanted a big name, big city school, but we wanted to at least expose her to some liberal arts schools so she would have a range to think about. Last summer (as a rising junior) we visited the two main state schools (both parental almas .....the kiss of death ;-) and two small liberal arts schools while visiting relatives. While she came away lukewarm all around, we have begun hearing positive comments about one of the LACS recently. </p>

<p>In contrast to the summer tours, we were in DC for spring break and took a tour of American University. Again, this was "Dad's idea" so it could have been a disaster. She loved it. The weather was perfect, the main quad area was crawling with student groups so she could really envision herself as a student there.</p>

<p>So this past week we again piggybacked on a trip to visit friends to visit two other LACs. This time she knew that she might not see the kind of activity that she would see during the school year, and went into it a bit more positive because she had some expectations. Both schools have similar missions, similar high quality faculties and facilities....both showed quite well actually, but my daughter's impressions were very much influenced by people. On one visit the obnoxious behavior of other prospective students (along with the tone of the surrounding town) gave her visit a decidedly negative cast. While at the second school, the tour guide so clearly exuded the kind of enthusiasm and commitment that the college prizes that my daughter could both imagine the activity that she would experience if it were a school-year visit and easily picture herself as a student there. Ironically, the first school had the big city connection she says she wants, while the second was a more traditional LAC in a small town.</p>

<p>For us, visiting has been the only way to engage our d in the process. If your son is one of those kids who loves reading all the college guides and is addicted to College Confidential, maybe your husband's approach would work, but I'd rather invest now in some visits and a few extra application fees than have her make a mistake on an investment that will probably cost us more than our house!</p>

19

<p>When I applied, I found it much easier to apply first, then visit. That way you can save the $ you would've spent on visiting schools that rejected you. Also, it's much easier to find time to make all those visits during second semester, when missing a few days of class really doesn't matter...you shouldn't be missing those days first semester because colleges will see your first semester grades when they're deciding whether or not to admit you.</p>

20

<p>Also don't forget to look at the web sites. Although they can sometimes be a mess re organization lots of them have links to students blogs and online tours. It;s a bit more immediate than the big college guides and can help narrow things down.</p>