Chilling thoughts about educational debt

<p>Spot-on article. </p>

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It limits the life choices of debt-burdened graduates, and can devastate the financial futures of those who default. It fuels inefficiency, price escalation and public disinvestment in higher education while transferring scarce resources from families and students to financial giants’ bottom line.

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<p>This easy money has allowed colleges to avoid the financial discipline and hard choices that otherwise would have guided their behavior. As we’ve learned of the current housing crisis, easy access to money causes the price of the thing being purchased to increase beyond all economic logic. And as many recent homeowners have found, so too will many heavily indebted college graduates. That is; The value of the asset purchased with those borrowed funds is insufficient, (contrary to expectations), to offset the debt obligation. That’s why many recent grads who at the start of their working careers and long thereafter will be finding themselves upside-down in their education investment. Truly heartbreaking.</p>

<p>taxguy. I think there are many many different threads about debt as part of paying for college. At the end of the, it is really just a personal chioce. There is such a big grey area there and it is really difficult to say who is right or wrong.</p>

<p>Most of the state U offers a great education at about 18 - 25K/year. With some summer job and work study, one should be able to do it with less than 100K debt. </p>

<p>Why would someone get into 200k debt for an under degree is beyond me.</p>

<p>When you see a system become this bad, you know the elected representatives must be on the take.</p>

<p>Dad II - Totally agree.
Why not attend affordable place. It is just economics - we buy houses, cars, .... that we can afford. The same idea is applicabale to college selection. One of our top selecion criteria for our D's college was NO LOANS. We ended up paying less for her college than we paid for her private HS. In regard to ourselves's education, both my H's and my jobs paid for it. Everybody can find an alternative that fit their specific situation.</p>

<p>"Look out for another improvement to the loan program, coming next July 1. If you have high student loan debt relative to your income, a program called Income Based Repayment can help. It will allow you to repay your loans based on a sliding scale. So for a graduate earning $35,000 with $40,000 in loans, monthly payments would be capped at $242.50, compared to $460.32 under standard repayment. All remaining balances are forgiven after 25 years.</p>

<p>BCEagle, It appears that some reformers have realized some compromise needs to be reached insofar as helping out those caught in the edudebt industries talons as opposed to the usual pattern of solely accommodating the corporate lobby.<br>
The proposal is very close to the Australian system. But the defining problem, will be as you noted, whether it could be applied to existing loans. If it is not, then the problem still remains as will the upcoming detrimental economic consequences. And there will be unreal lobby pressure to make sure such reforms do not happen.<br>
Already there are some concerns that the intent of this proposed reform could be wrecked. According to the Higher Education Watch, for the week of July 14th.
"New Repayment Program for Borrowers May Not Help All Who Need it, Report Says</p>

<p>The new Income-Based Repayment (IBR) program that is aimed at helping federal student loan borrowers with economic hardship repay their loans "is not likely to reach many of the neediest borrowers" as currently designed, according to a new paper released this month by the Student Loan Borrower Assistance Project of the National Consumer Law Center. Enacted as a part of the 2007 College Cost Reduction and Access Act (CCRA) and effective as of July 1, 2009, the IBR program limits the amount that borrowers with low earnings must repay on their federal loans. Among other things, the paper points out that borrowers with defaulted loans who choose to participate in IBR are not automatically considered to be out of default. As a result, these borrowers may still be subjected to "collection agency tactics, income tax seizures, federal benefit offsets, administrative wage garnishments and possible lawsuits." The paper recommends that loan companies be required to give delinquent borrowers the choice of selecting IBR before declaring those borrowers to be in default"</p>

<p>And the new proposal explains why the edudebt people, especially SMC are already planning a extensive lobby effort to stop these proposed reforms. They know the political winds are shifting and accordingly are already planning to co-opt key members of congress. And what's especially disturbing about this (in a long list of disturbing things) is that they are planning to once again use college financial aid offices to further their agenda. Which demonstrates how much contempt these organizations hold for the rule of law. After all those type of activities are precisely what they informed the NYS AG that they would cease and desist from doing. </p>

<p>HIGHEREDWATCH.ORG
Sallie Mae's Plan of Attack
Benjamin Miller, Stephen Burd | July 10, 2007</p>

<p>"The next several weeks are going to be crucial to the cause of student loan reform. Sallie Mae's strategy document makes clear the lengths the company and its allies will go to block such efforts. While the company's plan has not worked as well as planned so far, it's up to advocates of reform to expose these tactics for what they are."
Shortly after the Democrats won control of Congress last November, the student loan giant Sallie Mae laid out a strategy for itself -- and a blueprint for the rest of the loan industry to follow -- to protect the cushy subsidies lenders receive for making government-backed loans to students.</p>

<p>This plan, which was obtained by Rep. George Miller (D-CA) and can be read here, provides a close-up look at the hardball tactics that Sallie Mae set out to employ to maintain its dominance over the Federal Family Education Loan (FFEL) program and to beat back attacks from Democrats.</p>

<p>The loan company's political strategy had three main goals:</p>

<pre><code>* To woo Democrats to the cause. For years, Sallie Mae had tilted its political contributions and lobbying efforts to keeping the Republicans in charge of the White House and Congress. With the Democratic victories in November, the company saw an immediate need to reverse course. It set out to hire Democratic lobbyists and to shower Democrats with campaign contributions -- particularly "Blue Dog and Financial Services Democrats" and members of the Congressional Black and Hispanic Caucuses.

  • To manufacture grassroots opposition. to any potential subsidy cuts or efforts to reform the FFEL program. This plan called for mobilizing financial aid administrators at colleges in which Sallie Mae is the predominant lender, as well as other "industry allies," such as the National Assocation of Student Financial Aid Administrators. In addition, a key part of the plan involved persuading historically black colleges that subsidy cuts would especially harm students at their institutions.
  • To keep Republicans in the fold. Sallie Mae hoped to "arm Congressional Republicans" and the Bush Administration "to combat irresponsible proposals." The company was so sure of its standing with the Republican Congressional leadership that it planned to ask "Leader Boehner" -- Rep. John A. Boehner (R-OH), the House Minority Leader -- and "Chairman McKeon" -- Rep. Howard P. (Buck) McKeon (R-CA), the ranking minority member on the House Education and Labor Committee -- to lean on the White House Office of Management and Budget to stress "the importance of the right budget language." </code></pre>

<p>In some respects, Sallie Mae's plan -- at least to this point -- has failed spectacularly. Whether or not Representatives Boehner and McKeon came to the company's assistance (spokesmen for the lawmakers say they were never contacted), the White House certainly didn't include "the right budget language" in the President's 2008 budget request. In fact, the Bush Administration triangulated the loan industry, proposing deeper cuts in lender subsidies than any Democrat up to that point had proposed.</p>

<p>But in recent weeks, the education committees in the House and the Senate, with surprising amounts of bipartisan support, have approved bills that would take tens of billions of dollars out of the pockets of student loan providers. In addition, both panels are weighing plans to create pilot programs that would use auction mechanisms to set lender subsidies -- a proposal that Sallie Mae and other loan providers hate.</p>

<p>Congress is also expected to soon take up proposals to regulate private student loans. Among other things, Senate Democrats are considering removing a provision from the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill -- which Sallie Mae had championed -- that essentially bars students from being able to discharge their private loans in bankruptcy. Sallie Mae officials are now saying that they are open to revisiting the provision. It's hard to believe them though since they included the restriction as one of their top objectives in the strategy document.</p>

<p>Still, it's too early to count Sallie Mae out. In fact, the company has achieved some of its aims. The company, for instance, has hired some influential Democratic lobbyists, such as John Breaux, the former Louisiana senator who counts Sallie Mae as a client at his lobbying firm Patton Boggs, and Mark Schuermann, who was an aide to the former Rep. Harold Ford Jr. of Tennessee. And several blue dog Democrats in the Senate -- Ben Nelson of Nebraska, Tim Johnson of South Dakota, and Jim Webb of Virginia -- have spoken out against efforts to slash lender subsidies.</p>

<p>In addition, the company appears to have made some headway in its efforts to scare HBCUs and their supporters about how subsidy cuts will affect their institutions. This spring, Rep. Lincoln Davis (D-TN), Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA), and Marvalene Hughes, president of the historically black Dillard University in New Orleans, wrote letters to Congress that parroted Sallie Mae's arguments.</p>

<p>In its strategy document, Sallie Mae is very clear on how it planned to manipulate groups representing historically-black colleges and hispanic-servicing institutions to weigh into Congress in its favor. The company lists as one of its first priorities to schedule a meeting between it's then chief executive officer, Tim Fitzpatrick, and Michael Lomax, the CEO of the United Negro College Fund. The purpose of the meeting, according to the document, was "to orchestrate communication from Michael Lomax to FFEL HBCUs, urging communication to leaders in Washington (assuming he would be willing to do this)."</p>

<p>While we don't know what happened at that meeting, we do know that UNCF was one of several black-college groups that wrote to the chairmen of the House and Senate education committees protesting legislation approved by the House that is designed to crack down on abuses in the student-loan industry.</p>

<p>We also know that Sallie Mae has targeted the Congressional black and Hispanic caucuses, sending a document written by Mr. Schuermann, which claims that cuts in loan subsidies would be an “alarming threat” to HBCUs and Hispanic-serving institutions, which could “threaten service to African-American and Latino families.” The implication is clear — if the CBC and CHC failed to go along with what Sallie Mae wanted, it would have no compunction letting their member colleges know that they had put black and Hispanic students and families in harm's way.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, Sallie Mae is not alone in its lobbying efforts. In recent weeks, loan industry groups like the Consumer Bankers Association (CBA) have borrowed from the company's playbook by trying to "manufacture" grass roots dissent. Recently CBA was caught trying to spread misinformation to labor union members to get them to join a campaign opposing legislation that would cut lender subsidies. They have also produced a push poll of financial-aid administrators aimed at persuading lawmakers that college officials do not believe student-loan providers, as a group, are unethical.</p>

<p>The next several weeks are going to be crucial to the cause of student-loan reform. Sallie Mae's strategy document makes clear the lengths the company and its allies will go to block such efforts. While the company's plan has not worked as well as planned so far, it's up to advocates of reform to expose these tactics for what they are..."</p>

<p>And Toblin you are quite correct in your assessment of the financial consequences for colleges and academia. Quite interesting that the average 6% yearly increase in tuitions generally coincided with the transfer to a loan based model of student funding. "This easy money has allowed colleges to avoid the financial discipline and hard choices that otherwise would have guided their behavior." </p>

<p>And the last sentence is also quite indicting insofar as it alludes to the moral undermining of academia attendant to this issue.</p>

<p>Thanks to the OP for the link. The comments posted following the IHE article and here on this board were illuminating and have given me pause as I head into the deadline to sign the forms for a Stafford loan for my incoming freshman. I think, even though I have no reason to believe I/my son would ever have a late payment, that we will try to do without the loan if at all possible.</p>

<p>Probably wise to do without it. </p>

<p>And on the late payment, well no doubt most do try to keep up with the dates. That said, several of these companies are setting late dates as to when the payment is processed through their system, rather than when it is received. So in those cases even an EFT might not be considered on time. </p>

<p>And one particular company has a habit of changing the processing address several times yearly. That one has caused some problems for several former students and current colleagues. </p>

<p>Because of these type of tricks quite a few people are reluctant to give these companies routing and account numbers.</p>

<p>I'll graduate from Dartmouth $60,000 in debt, which is a bit daunting, but I qualify for subsidized loans from the Swedish government and my monthly payments will be somewhere around $250. </p>

<p>Am I naive to think I won't have too much trouble making those payments, assuming I have no credit card debt, car payments, or any other debt, and live frugally my first few years out of college? </p>

<p>Would it be foolish to even consider graduate schools* that might require me to incur additional debt? (Is there any grad school that wouldn't?)</p>

<p>How much debt would you consider acceptable at <3% interest over 25 years? (Alternatively, what do you consider a manageable monthly payment?)</p>

<p>I'm not a U.S. citizen, so "affordable state school" wasn't an option here. Dartmouth's was the most generous financial aid offer I got, but it nevertheless fell short of meeting my family's actual need.</p>

<p>*Not including law or medicine, neither of which I'm considering.</p>

<p>My quick & dirty "rule" is to limit your total borrowing to your anticipated first-year salary in your "safety" job. By "safety" job I mean the same as when we talk about "safety" colleges - that is the job you are pretty sure to get with an undergraduate degree in your field of study, not the dream job. I think a college grad with a liberal arts degree can reasonably expect $30K as a starting salary. The graduate school might make sense if it will qualify you for a higher paying position. </p>

<p>When your payments are due, arrange for automatic withdrawal from your checking account - and treat the payment amount as if it was never there. That is -- subtract that off the top of your budget. And as I noted above, make an extra payment or two at the beginning of your loan --that puts you "ahead" on the books and will prevent you getting charged any late fees if for some reason a payment later on isn't credited properly. </p>

<p>A reasonable amount of debt will not be a problem if you manage it well -- the problem that people typically run into is that they get in over their heads and can't make all their payments.</p>

<p>If your loans are from the Swedish government, then you would have to investigate how they treat those with student loans. I don't follow the Swedish currency nor the Swedish markets and don't know average income there so I can't make a judgement on the overall debt or monthly payments (though the overall amount seems like a lot to me in dollar terms). If you plan on working in the US afterwards, then you take currency risk in that you will be earning in dollars but paying back the loan in Swedish currency (my assumption).</p>

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My quick & dirty "rule" is to limit your total borrowing to your anticipated first-year salary in your "safety" job. By "safety" job I mean the same as when we talk about "safety" colleges - that is the job you are pretty sure to get with an undergraduate degree in your field of study, not the dream job. I think a college grad with a liberal arts degree can reasonably expect $30K as a starting salary. The graduate school might make sense if it will qualify you for a higher paying position.</p>

<p>When your payments are due, arrange for automatic withdrawal from your checking account - and treat the payment amount as if it was never there. That is -- subtract that off the top of your budget. And as I noted above, make an extra payment or two at the beginning of your loan --that puts you "ahead" on the books and will prevent you getting charged any late fees if for some reason a payment later on isn't credited properly.</p>

<p>A reasonable amount of debt will not be a problem if you manage it well -- the problem that people typically run into is that they get in over their heads and can't make all their payments.

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<p>I was just about to ask, "so, what's a 'safe' level of undergrad debt?" Then I got to the end of the thread and saw your post. :)</p>

<p>I was thinking along those lines (entry level salary), but didn't know if it was too arbitrary.</p>

<p>calmom, I like that guideline!</p>

<p>"If you plan on working in the US afterwards, then you take currency risk in that you will be earning in dollars but paying back the loan in Swedish currency (my assumption)." </p>

<p>BCEagle, and that could be quite a concern given the fall of the dollar to the Euro. The Crona is currently at 9.4518 Euros. The dollar seems now to be at .629 Euros but the dollars value has been plunging since March. </p>

<p>Cameliasinensis, You didn't specify what field the graduate degree you're considering is in...but if it's in education or any of the liberal arts it would be wise to really think about the risks before going to graduate studies. </p>

<p>But even heretofore safe degrees like medicine are troubled now. Earlier this spring the AMA asked (begged) the USDOE to restore and expand loan deferment/forgiveness programs. Which apparently may not have happened, Spelling's seems to have stonewalled it. There seem to have been no additional mentions of the matter in the Chronicle of Higher Education. </p>

<p>And if the Swedish government is subsidizing SL's hopefully they've kept better control over their systems than the US, Britain or Canada. These three countries have had some troubles, but Canada seems to be moving to resolve the issues. Ironically the British and the Canadians have some of the same (or subsidiaries) of the companies operating there which have caused most of the the troubles in here in the US. Troubling to think the US government created financial monsters which used our poor governmental policies to gain assets to spread to other countries. Apparently cronyism produces it's very own form of viral idiocy.</p>

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Not education or the humanities. Possibly a M.Arch (architecture) or an MBA, or something else that I haven't thought of yet, but I'm not making plans for anything I don't know will be feasible.</p>

<p>I was set on international relations and just recently realized I probably wouldn't like it, so it's all up in the air right now. :eek:</p>

<p>Well you're being very wise in thinking it all over. Quite a few profs linger from the Halcyon days of the 60's and 70's when taking courses to discover oneself didn't cost that much or cause too much trouble. </p>

<p>But in the last decade or so that little idyll was strangled by the growth of the debt paradigm already discussed in this thread. So its very smart to be sure of what you intend to study, regardless at times what the profs may advise. In some cases they're out of touch, in others trying to bolster declining enrollments. </p>

<p>Architecture would seem to be better than the softer arts. The soft arts when considered in regards to the costs of the degrees tend not to balance out especially well.</p>