<p>I am a high school senior with a VERY tough choice. I'm leaning Duke but Brown is a close second. I know 110% I want to be a lawyer, and I know law school places heavy judgment on GPA. Brown has more inflation than Duke (whose Cum Lade = 3.67). Will I be better off for Law school at Brown?</p>
<p>Go where you think you’ll enjoy it more. GPA matters for law school, but you don’t want to suffer on the way there. The LSAT matters more than your GPA anyways.</p>
<p>If you’re not taking a lot of stem courses, you should be able to pull a high GPA at either of those schools. (Obviously your academic gifts got you in.) I agree to go where you’d have the better overall experience. They’re very different in tone.</p>
<p>Brown is a no-brainer for prelaw, assuming that you like the school.</p>
<p>You misunderstand why the median GPA at Brown is high. </p>
<p>Believe it or not, it’s just as hard, maybe even harder, to get an A at Brown as it is at most top colleges. The difference is that at Brown, you can take as many courses as you want on a S/NC basis–Brown’s version of pass/fail. There are students --albeit only a few–who take ALL of their courses S/NC. LOTS of people take one course per term S/NC. That’s probably the most common practice. </p>
<p>So, the high gpa at Brown reflects the gpa of students IN COURSES THEY TOOK FOR GRADES AND ONLY IN THOSE COURSES. It’s almost unheard of for any Brown student to get a C, because anyone who expects to do poorly in a course takes it S/NC. While there are a few smart kids who take all their courses S/NC as a matter of principle, most people take S/NC in their weak subject or courses outside their comfort zones. Then there is a pretty large cohort of theatre types who spend most of their energy focused on performance, but just want to have a college degree. This same group exists at other schools–though it probably isn’t as big a factor at Duke, which is weak in the arts. At other schools, those kids help the curve. They don’t at Brown because they don’t take courses for grades. So, as a practical matter, it’s as if on average the bottom 20%-30% of each individual class isn’t factored into the determination of Brown’s median GPA.</p>
<p>Add to this that last I knew, Brown only gives A, B and C grades. No pluses or minuses. So if you don’t get an A, you’ll get a B, not a B+. A B hurts your GPA more than a B+ does. </p>
<p>There’s actually a thread about this on the Brown section of CC. See <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/1460597-hard-get-brown.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/1460597-hard-get-brown.html</a> A freshman was shocked to get a 3.3. </p>
<p>Brown and Duke are culturally on opposite ends of the spectrum. Choose the one where you think you’ll be happiest. Don’t choose Brown because you think it will be easy to get a high GPA. It isn’t. You’ll work every bit as hard for one if you take all of your courses for grades. And, if you’re applying to law school, you will take MOST of your courses for a grade. </p>
<p>One advantage of Brown’s system is that almost nobody takes true guts. They are pretty rare at Brown. Students take real courses–the same ones students majoring in a subject take–but take them S/NC. Brown students don’t sign up for easy courses to “protect” their GPA for law and/or med school the way students at most schools do. </p>
<p>I agree with the advice to go to the school you think you’ll enjoy more.</p>
<p>Jonri, sure, it may be the generous P/F system that contributes to the high GPAs, but so what? The object for law school is to earn a high GPA. Period. (Law schools don’t care how it is obtained.)</p>
<p>btw: A big Brown supporter (and alum) has posted on cc that even many of Brown’s STEM classes have an A- average. That just does not occur anywhere else.</p>
<p>According to IPEDS, bio sci is the largest group of concentrators are Brown. The Arts is less than half of that number. Econ majors outnumber The Arts concentrators.
Ditto Math concentrators.</p>
<p>In sum, Brown is not much different than it’s Ivy colleague, Dartmouth, but yet has a much, much higher mean GPA. Great for professional school apps, in which Brownies do extremely well.</p>
<p>The point is that the average student at Brown is much better off than the average student at Dartmouth or Duke when applying for med/law schools.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Seriously? (If no one takes them, then they must not exist? And if they don’t exist, it would be the only college in the country without 'em? btw: what classes do the football and hockey players take?)</p>
<p>Trying again…</p>
<p>You can’t go to Brown, take only 12 classes for a grade, get a 4.0 and get into Harvard Law. It just doesn’t work. You have to take most of your classes for a grade. It doesn’t matter to the student striving for an A that there are 5 students in his class of 20 who took the course for a S/NC and aren’t factored into the median GPA for that class. However, it does make the median GPA for the class higher. At most other elite schools, those students would end up with grades ranging from C to B+. They bring down the median GPA. </p>
<p>I’m not denying there are guts at Brown; there just aren’t as many.There is no equivalent to Rocks for Jocks (Geology) or Clapping for Credit (Music) or Astronomy 101 or Physics for Poets with 400 people taking them to meet distribution requirements because there aren’t any distribution requirements. It has always dumbfounded me that students who took real science courses in high school and did well enough in them to get into top schools then take gut courses designed for non-science majors in college. And, despite the fact that these are guts, at most top colleges, the median GPA in these courses is appallingly low and they help bring down the median GPA in science courses overall. </p>
<p>One of the most popular Brown guts, which many students still took pass-fail, was an engineering course. It was taken almost exclusively by non-science majors. The prof was very beloved by students; he was a great teacher. Yes, it was a gut in terms of other science courses, but at most colleges non-science majors aiming for law school would never dream of taking an engineering course because they would be scared of getting a lousy grade that would impact their chances of getting into a top law school. At Brown, over 10% of the student body took the course with the thought that “you know, to be an educated person, I really should have SOME understanding of basic engineering concepts and this is my chance to learn some.” </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There are some guts at Brown, but it’s impossible to take enough of them to graduate. There are some smart jocks, even a surprising number who have gone on to med school. The ones who aren’t all that interested in academics take the same courses as everyone else but take them S/NC. If you read the link to the Brown Daily Herald in the other thread, you’ll note that 12% of all S/NC grades are NCs, the equivalent of a F. NCs don’t show up on your transcript, BTW. And if you take 4 courses each semester, you can fail 2 and still graduate. Yes, that may seem ridiculous, but the fact is that anecdotal evidence and that 12% figure suggests that Brown faculty are more likely to actually FAIL students than faculty at other elite schools where a F shows up on the transcript. </p>
<p>And, yes, there are some concentrations–Brown’s version of majors–that are easier than others. But, the hockey and football players take the SAME courses as everyone else. They just take a higher percentage of them S/NC. So, do the theatre types. </p>
<p>The real advantage of attending Brown for students who are aiming at top law schools is the chance to take a limited number of REAL courses outside your comfort zone on a S/NC basis INSTEAD OF searching for guts you can take for a grade to meet distribution requirements at other top colleges.</p>
<p>As a parent, I’d much rather have my kid take a REAL course S/NC than have my kid take some stupid science course with only non-science majors at another college because (s)he was afraid to take a REAL science course and risk law school admission.</p>
<p>Again, choose the college you like more for UG. Don’t pick Brown because you think it will be easier to get a high GPA.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly. And at any other college, a student would have to take distributives/GE’s (or courses of interest) and perhaps struggle through with a B (or worse), and kill the GPA for Harvard Law. (Yes, I know, the open curriculum has no distributives.)</p>
<p>But look at it another way. Even with the Brown courses that are pseudo-curved: instead of the bottom quartile of the students all competing for a low B, they are cruising for a C- (or pass). That works wonders for the curve, since it spreads it out significantly. Win-win, even for the B’s since their competition is self-eliminated by the P/F. (just stats)</p>
<p>The FACT is that the average student at Brown has a much better chance at Harvard Law than does that average student at Dartmouth. Actually, the average student at Dartmouth has a near zero chance at HLS. Yet statistically, those student bodies are nearly the same. The only thing accounting for the differences in chances to HLS is the Brown curriculum.</p>
<p>Again, a no-brainer.</p>
<p>btw: I should have added that the average Duke kid has no chance at HLS, either.</p>
<p>
Ah, but the purpose of those classes is to weed out people who don’t belong in engineering, chem, physics, or pre-med. It’s not like introductory writing or French; it’s there to basically tell freshmen to find a new major before they’ve invested too much time on a fruitless path.</p>
<p>These aren’t weeder courses. No self-respecting science major would dream of taking one. They aren’t “gateways” to more difficult courses. The people who take them do not intend to take any courses in the field once they’ve met the distribution requirements.</p>
<p>Perhaps we’re talking about different “gut” courses. I know many engineers who took the intro chem and physics courses; they were either required to, because of the extremely stringent standards to AP out, or did so because they didn’t want to take organic chemistry or quantum mechanics as a freshman.</p>
<p>We are. I mean guts like those in this article. [The</a> guts and the glory: a class-shopping list of champions | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2002/06/30/the-guts-and-the-glory-a-class-shopping-list-of-champions/]The”>The guts and the glory: a class-shopping list of champions - Yale Daily News)</p>
<p>The Flora course is mentioned in “Chloe Does Yale.”</p>
<p>To me, the idea that a course on science fiction fulfills a natural science distribution requirement is laughable.</p>
<p>In fairness, some students do the reverse. One of the most popular economics courses in undergrad was “The Art Market”, which allowed people to receive arts credit without ever having to actually take an art class. My photography class was taught by a physician and filled with premeds.</p>
<p>“grade inflation for law school acceptance”… honestly this is a pretty terrible reason to choose a college over the other. Your grades will be much more heavily impacted by your major and the courses you take, rather than which college you end up at.</p>
<p>That being said, you got into some very impressive schools. Maybe instead of worrying about which college will hand out A’s more easily, you should worry more about setting yourself up for a successful career/ job after college.</p>
<p>So funsixedjas- what did you choose? Best of luck.</p>
<p>I chose Duke!</p>
<p>First, congratulations on two very excellent schools! Part of me wants to say you can’t go too wrong with those two very prestigious institutions with great faculty. </p>
<p>But to give my opinion as to your original question, I think it’s important to not put all of one’s eggs into one basket so to speak too early. You sound very enthusiastic about going into law and are wise to ask a lot of questions about the field early on. But one interesting thing I’ve noticed that’s happened to approximately 50% or so of my friends from college is that they ended up changing their majors and pre-college career goals once in school. It’s actually very common and I’ve known acquaintances who had similar experiences as well (not just close friends). </p>
<p>I think a lot of it had to do with actually taking classes across various subjects in college and finding out more of what they were into, what they were good at, and what the job prospects were of various fields. I would recommend preparing for law (by doing your research, taking relevant coursework, and striving for your best academically), but also being open to and exploring other fields. You never know and may find that you enjoy another field even more so than the idea of law (which, by the way, lacks a specific undergraduate course of study). </p>
<p>It’s for this primary reason (and some others) that I don’t recommend choosing a school based on which institution has greater grade inflation. You want to go where you are most comfortable all-around. And that means taking into consideration the social environment, the weather, campus club opportunities, the local town/area, the students, etc. etc. But it’s more than mere comfort as well, because being happy and comfortable also contribute to positive mental health and your school productivity. So one effects the other. </p>
<p>But there are also a host of other factors to consider and to realize. College is a once in a lifetime experience, where often people meet their lifelong friends (and possibly even spouses!) and an opportunity to explore new interests. It’s definitely a time of serious study as well, as young people prepare for their careers, but that’s only one facet of it. You’ll be making new friends, establishing career/social networks and learning other skills that will prepare you for life (in whatever field you choose). Taking into consideration all of a campus’ resources and the environment are just as important as considerations about its ability to prepare you for a potential field you’re interested in. </p>
<p>But one other thing to realize, as well, is that while a school may have a reputation for having higher grade inflation than another, grades will also depend on: a.) the individual professor (some grade harder than others in the same subject/class); and b.) the other students in your class (if it’s graded on a curve). It’s hard to predict what type of grading a professor may have or the relative ability of the other students in your classes (if graded on a curve). So even if one chooses a school with a better reputation for easier grading, it’s still not a guarantee that that person would have better grades than having gone elsewhere. </p>
<p>I guess I just find that there are too many non-law school factors to consider in choosing a college that I would not attend School A over School B purely for grade inflation considerations. </p>
<p>Hope that gives you something to think about. But, whatever you decide to choose, best of luck to you!</p>