<p>Hi,
Advice needed for daughter choosing an undergrad program in hopes of law school one day. How important is the name and reputation of the undergrad program? She's looking at smaller, lesser known LAC's because that's what appeals to her now. My concern is a lot of debt or her being unhappy at a large university chosen just for name recognition as an undergrad. Is it better to be a big fish in a little pond for undergrad or to choose a larger more difficult university in hopes of law school? Any advice is greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>law school admission is primarily about your GPA + LSAT . For the top top schools clearly that alone is not enough, so ECs , work , etc will play a bigger role.</p>
<p>Your daughter should go where she will have a good time in undergrad. She might even change her mind about law school. She should go where she will do well, have fun, explore her possibilites, and focus on her current degree not one in the future.</p>
<p>For "top top schools" I assume Malishka is referring to Yale and Stanford. Those two care a lot about soft factors.</p>
<p>Harvard, Columbia, NYU, not really.</p>
<p>First, as others have said, law school admissions is mostly about gpa and LSAT. Most folks get better grades when they are happy than when they are miserable. </p>
<p>What size fish it's best to be depends upon your kid's personality. It's not a politically correct statement to make, but my anecdotal evidence is that males tend to enjoy being at the top of the heap more than females do. YMMV, of course. I used to joke that my D would be at the 75th percentile at the local community college or MIT. She always aimed for that spot--high enough to be considered one of the "smart" kids--not high enough to be the smartest kid. Thus, it was VERY important that she go to as competitive a college as possible.</p>
<p>There are two other considerations. One is debt. Law school is expensive. Only a few--in general the very top--law schools give fin aid based on family income. There are merit scholarships, but you have to have a strong record to be in the running...much, much stronger than for merit money for college. So, yes, debt is a consideration. The VERY top PRIVATE law schools have good loan forgiveness programs for those who go into low-paying public interest jobs and some include UG debt. But again, most people are going to spend a lot of $ for law school, and thus it might not be wise to have a lot of debt coming out of undergrad.</p>
<p>The second is standardized test-taking ability. I know many will disagree, but...even though LSAT score is really, really, really, add a few more reallys, important in law school admissions, LS folks are, from what I've seen, more inclined to overlook mediocre --or more accurately, good, but not great --LSAT scores for students with high GPAs at top schools than those with top grades at second tier LACs --or any other kind of college.</p>
<p>So, IMO--and again, it's certainly not one everyone accepts--it's more important for the less than stellar test taker to go to a highly ranked college than for a great test taker to do so. If your D scored a 2400 on the SAT, she'll probably do well on the LSAT and where she goes to college won't matter much. if she scored a 1750, but is likely to get outstanding grades wherever she goes, then I think UG rep is more important. Again, please note, a lot of folks think I'm wrong. But personally, I'd rather have a kid with a 3.8 at UMichigan with a 160 LSAT applying to law school than a kid with a 3.9 from Alma College with a 160 LSAT--and I happen to think Alma is a pretty good LAC. </p>
<p>There was a poster here with a 4.0 in a regional school who scored a 159 on the LSAT...and believe me, the results of his law school apps were abysmal. He was really, really upset. Had that 4.0 been from a more highly ranked university, i think it's more likely he would have gotten in somewhere.
Admissions folks would have said "Despite that 159, the fact this kid got a 4.0at Prestige U means he can do the work." Instead they apparently thought "if someone who got a 159 LSAT could get straight As. local u.must be a really easy school." He probably would have gotten into the same law schools with a 3.0. </p>
<p>Another consideration--how well does your D write? In my experience, the LACs tend to spend a lot more time teaching kdis to write than the "fill in the bubble" large state Us--again, there are exceptions; I'm speaking in generalities. Grades in law school MATTER a LOT. And, from what I've seen, those who write well do better gpa wise. You can know the material just as well as your classmate, but it's all about how well you get it down on paper in a limited amount of time. Writing well is crucial. So, if your D is not a stellar writer, she should choose a college where she will be taught how to write. </p>
<p>Nobody has a crystal ball--and reality is that it's PROBABLE that your D will NOT go to law school. So...she should go wherever she wants. Just in case she is one of the minority that does follow through, I hope these musings will be some help.</p>
<p>I know a kid who do his undergrad at East Tennessee State University and is now at Harvard Law School...don't know if that helps or not</p>
<p>Jonri's observations are completely in accord with my own.</p>
<p>My classmates at Boalt back in the 80's who had attended schools that were not well known had achieved GPA's very close to 4.0, plus very high LSAT scores.</p>
<p>I also knew someone with a relatively low LSAT score (600 in those days, equivalent to about 160 now) who had earned a 4.0 at Penn.</p>
<p>The most typical profile of an admitted student (in those days of less grade inflation) had a GPA of 3.7 or so from a flagship state university or glitzy private school, with an LSAT significantly over 700 (over 170 in today's scale).</p>
<p>It's GPA + LSAT. Schools will consider quality of the undergrad school and courses taken. Also work experince, resume, and activities are important. A 3.5 gpa and Lsat 165+ will get you in some very good schools. 160 3.4+ will get you in a top fifty school. Under 155 you're looking at Tier II schools which is fine if you want to practice regionally</p>
<p>Let your daughter decide. I'm sure she'll know where she will be happiest, and she'll do her best there.</p>
<p>I will echo what jonri and greybeard said. I would focus on making sure that your daughter finds a college that is a good fit for her. Whether or not she later decides to go on to law school, finding happiness at her undergrad should be the single most important factor in choosing a school.</p>