<p>
It depends on what you mean by “very wealthy.” Even at Ivies, plenty of full-pay families have to make difficult financial tradeoffs. Personally, I think it can be worth it, but it’s still very expensive, unless you are VERY wealthy.</p>
<p>@4formom - Not ALL of the Ivy League schools are the same, especially with regard to how cutthroat the competition is. Brown has a reputation of being very laid back, and you can even take classes pass/fail there if you want to. Out of the Ivy League, Vassar has a similar reputation…super smart students but with a more laid-back atmosphere. You don’t need to hope your daughter goes to a second-tier school…just make sure she goes to the right top-tier one.</p>
<p>@blossom - Just to be clear, I’m all for sending a kid to a top-tier college (my kid will attend one) if at all possible. For me, it’s not even a cost-benefit analysis, because when you go to a top college and are surrounded by top students, it’s worth even more than that. HOWEVER, if a family finds that for some reason they can not afford a top college for their student, then taking a full-rid somewhere else is a viable option.</p>
<p>“CS actually involves a pretty decent level of math.”
-Actually NONE. Almost any business field (well maybe not logistics, but most others) involve much more math than CS. There is no math in CS whatsoever. If you call logic of “if, then else…” a math, then our whole life is a math…well I did not know that by now, but I wish that we all live in some kind of logical order instead of “logic free zone”, but it is a dream that has nothing to do with this thread. </p>
<p>Full need is defined differently among top schools, even the full need schools. There is a thread on CC about just this topic. </p>
<p><a href=“Colleges and Universities That Claim to Meet Full Financial Need - #31 by Charliesch - Financial Aid and Scholarships - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1686192-colleges-and-universities-that-claim-to-meet-full-financial-need-p3.html</a> </p>
<p>The question on this thread is about how you make the choice between full ride vs. selective college and for a STEM major, honors program vs. selective college and although that often comes down to $$, I think the question is asking for specifics of how people made that choice previously, not hypothetically. Is this correct?
I am interested in the Math major part of the STEM majors and wondered if anyone had any insights specifically related to math.</p>
<p>stepay, that is VERY misleading. For one, it must not be linear and skyrockets quickly above the $120,000 line. And for another, not all ivies are created equal in this regard. Just did Cornell NPC for a good laugh on our info. $180K income before any mandatory or discretionary retirement deductions or taxes. Additionally a paid for primary house worth about $300K, but no appreciable additional assets income or unusual circumstances, just the paycheck. 2 parents/2 kids. I’ve done these before so the result is no surprise. They offer only $5K need-based grant. Never mind the loan nonsense. I’m guessing the parents anguishing over paying for top schools vs. big scholarships are often in our situation. Net cost $59,000/yr.</p>
<p>@numbersfun. Both Texas A&M and UMN-TC are schools that offer large merit awards, at least to NMFs, not sure about for stats. And have top notch math depts. They won’t have the atmosphere of an Ivy/MIT/LAC as they are large public schools. But the math depts at both are very very good and no apologies necessary to anyone for enrolling at these schools with intention of pursuing math degree. Especially if student is comfortable in large public college setting.</p>
<p>In general, math depts have few students in the major. They are service depts and at large schools may sometimes run large classes up through Diff Eq. After that class size almost always drops to small. Some schools may be 25 or so, depends on finances. So then the question is about nature of classes and texts used. Some may offer a couple of tracks, regular for the math ed and honors for stronger students. You really have to dig into the course schedules, check what books they use, and the bios of dept profs, and elsewhere for a clear view. Some depts trying to build a reputation may spend mostly to hire applied math profs. If the dept is all applied and your kid leans towards pure math, then that is not a good match. And it is something to look out for at lower-ranked schools. Applied is great for the kids who want that.</p>
<p>@celesteroberts - Odd, because I just did the same thing with your parameters and guesses on things you didn’t mention. Even gave the student $1,500 in savings. Now, I did place the house in Ohio (not sure where you put it, and I can’t see how it could make THAT big of a difference). Here are the results - Total cost - $64,184; Total estimated grants from Cornell - $45,931. Total cost BEFORE loans and student work - $18,253. Cornell then suggests a student loan of $7,500 and money earned by student (it says campus employment) of $2,500. This drops parental contribution down to $8,253 and means the student would graduate from Cornell with $30,000 in student loans if they took that loan each year. Personally, I think that’s too much loan for MOST students. I’d rather see that top out at $20,000 MAX, but for someone with a paid for house and $180,000 in income, even $18,253 a year should be doable, so if you topped the student loan at $5,000 each year, then instead of 8,253, your contribution would be $10,753. That to me seems to be “full financial need”. You must have income coming in from somewhere else or more assets or something as our figures are VERY different.</p>
<p>OK, I’m gonna do it again…</p>
<p>@hunt - I hear people say that an Ivy League education is very expensive unless you are very wealthy, and my research just does not tell me that at all. My own research on what it would cost based on my own family income (which is pretty good but not great) and then anecdotal evidence. Girl from my kids’ high school got accepted to Princeton and is going there cost-free based on her family’s financial situation…and they are not ‘poor’. Every year Ivy League schools make the best value lists for private colleges. Just did a search and in the very first hit, 3 Ivy League schools (Harvard, Princeton, and Yale) are in the top 10 private schools - <a href=“Best Value Colleges 2023 Rankings | 209 Best Value Colleges | The Princeton Review”>http://www.princetonreview.com/best-value-colleges.aspx</a>. And it isn’t just saying that the education is so great and that’s the value. Their criteria includes “truly the most exceptional in the nation at delivering great academics combined with affordable cost”. Here’s another list of Best Value colleges that has Ivies as 5 of the top 7 (and the top 3!) and then #10, #12, and #15 (that’s all 8 of them in the top 15%) - <a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/best-value”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/best-value</a> - If you get into an Ivy League school, it’s a very rare situation that makes in unaffordable. I suppose there are people out there who make a ton of money (who then wouldn’t get much aid) who spend it all so that they can’t afford a decently hefty bill, but shame on them.</p>
<p>Wisconsin. Well I double checked everything to make sure I’m not declaring a 3 million dollar house or 1.8 million income. Changed slightly the way I declare our college aged daughter(she is mostly on merit and don’t want her to unrealistically drop our EFC). That brought the grant up to $8,000. No income/assets for applicant as that makes it easier to fill out. Correctly checked citizen/marital status, etc. boxes. I’ve never had an NPC come in as low as you are getting, even 3 years ago when income was lower. At any school. And the real results we got from places like Vanderbilt and Chicago using our tax forms were nowhere near that low. Maybe I’m really messing something up. I don’t know.</p>
<p>I WAS making a mistake, estimating and forgot that the retirement and other pre-tax stuff isn’t in AGI. Now used actual old materials and updated with new info to be sure to use correct numbers. That brought grant up to $16K. Still can’t afford it though.</p>
<p>@stepay
Clearly you made some mistake somewhere. Even Harvard is not that generous for a $180,000 gross income. Even with no savings. Our income is a little bit higher than that and some savings (but not a lot). My daughter is a Freshmen at Cornell and we are full pay.</p>
<p>FWIW, I tried it with 180K, 4 members, 1 kid in college. no savings with 300K house equity and the EFC is closer to what celeste got. </p>
<p>Thank you, @celeseroberts. </p>
<p>Don’t want to beat this horse, but, I’ve done the math, too. More assets= less aid. And there can be costs (like medical insurance and expenses) that don’t get taken out of AGI and are subject to schedule A restrictions that can really reduce available income. So please, don’t make assumptions about what level of income makes it easy to afford an IVY education.</p>
<p>@blossom: “… The reality that there are parents who are paying essentially the same price at … Quinnipiac as someone else is paying for Stanford strikes me as bizarre.”
Well said indeed! Quinnipiac costs more than its neighbor, Yale!</p>
<p>@stepay:</p>
<p>Most families making $250-$300K a year would not consider themselves to be extremely wealthy or consider $260K to be a minor easily affordable expense (especially if an education for no tuition costs is an option). $200K is still $200K, and if a kid is looking to get an MBA or JD (or even Masters), paying up for the advanced degree makes much more sense than paying up for undergrad (while for law school, med school, and PhD/Masters programs admissions, a good honors college or LAC with big merit may be just as good as an elite).</p>
<p>Not to mention that pretty much no other colleges are as generous with fin aid as HYPS.</p>
<p>A disproportionate percentage of kids who can get in to an Ivy/equivalent are upper-middle class, so you’re mistaken in thinking that almost no one would have to face the tough decision of full-pay at a private elite vs. virtually no-pay elsewhere.</p>
<p>People within the 250-300k range may not consider themselves extremely wealthy, but they are easily within the top 5% of all wage earners and thus are not plausibly described as upper middle class</p>
<p>^actually, in the top 2-1.5% 
Average income in the US for a family of 4 is around 55K.
Granted, they don’t apply to elite college very often, which may be why we have an inequality problem in this country seeing how graduating from top schools makes a difference precisely to this type of groups (first gens, middle and working class, etc). But if they do, they can attend these schools for free. The issue is that people who have heard of these schools and want them also have to pay for them because their income is four, five, six, ten times the “average” income… hence this thread. Even “wealthy” families may not have anticipated the cost of college - look at costs in 2003 to get an idea how reasonable expectations were dubfounded. Some families just may not care (such as the kid whose family was wealthy enough to pay many times over but wouldn’t pay for CMU CS where he’d gotten admitted). Some families had other priorities than their children’s higher education.
Outside of people who’ve been “Name” families for generations, nobody would consider themselves wealthy let alone extremely wealthy. Most people think they’re “middle class” because they dont really have a basis for comparison.</p>
<p>Since “extremely wealthy” and even “wealthy” are subjective, we likely can’t come to an agreement on what constitutes what, but as was stated by @myos1634, average income for a family of 4 in the US is ~55,000. Taking the label of “wealthy” out of it and just going with “can afford it”, a family of 4 making $250,000-$300,000 in my mind can afford full pay or close to full pay Ivy League prices. Now, I get that often people (big income and small) typically spend to their income level (cost of house, location of house, price and number of cars, etc.), but that still doesn’t mean a family making more than a quarter of a million dollars a year shouldn’t be able to pay a big chunk of money for college. EVERYONE, no matter their income, should be thinking about college from the moment they have a kid who demonstrates they are likely headed down that path. Schools identify children as “gifted” or not as early as 1st grade these days, so there’s a LOT of time to make fiscal adjustments. Got a HUGE income so you aren’t likely to get much aid? Well, then you should save a lot of that huge income as the kids grow up so that you will have it when the time comes. Or, you can just decide that you will need a good portion of that income later to pay for college so either you buy yourself a smaller (more affordable) home, or you plan to have it paid off by college time, or something along those lines. At that point, it’s just a matter of what you want to do when college time arrives. If your kid is smart enough to get into Harvard and you have to pay full price, is that worth it to you, or would you rather your kid get a full ride at Florida State? Of course the other issue is that OFTEN people don’t have HUGE incomes the entire time their kids are growing up…those incomes rise over time…BUT, you can still foresee what will be likely when your kids are of college age, so saving and investing early on is still an option.</p>
<p>@stepay:</p>
<p>Sure, many families bringing in $250K or so <em>can</em> afford full-pay for 4 years with enough planning, but a family making $120K can afford to pay their full annual income in tuition costs over 4 years with enough planning as well, no? Would you be willing to do so if there was a nearly-free option available?</p>
<p>Believe it or not, the decision to spend or save $200K would be a big deal to a family making $250K.</p>
<p>Furthermore, not every school is Harvard (and, depending on career path, the benefits of attending H for undergrad would vary). I won’t say I’d make a kid choose a full-tuition scholarship at FSU over Harvard, but stick with the original example: would you pay your annual income for CalTech/Mudd instead of Arizona honors? Easy decision or no?</p>