Choosing Harvard over Princeton-why?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>When I started looking at colleges two years ago, Princeton and Yale were my two “reach” targets and come April I found myself blessed with admission to both but cursed with the wrenching choice between them. Though I never applied to Harvard, I imagine in the end I might have chosen Harvard over Princeton, for much the same reasons I ultimately chose Yale in my actual circumstances. Basically, like some other posters above mentioned, I just found Yale’s campus, if not necessarily more beautiful, more energetic and the undergraduate vibe just more vivaciously intellectual. After several visits to each school, I liked the dining hall conversations with students better at Yale.</p>

<p>When I was doing my research, I stumbled into a couple of articles in the Daily Princetonian that capture my impressions quite succinctly. Both are by a well-known Princeton professor:</p>

<p>[Tiger</a>? Bulldog? Tiger? - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2006/10/23/16303/]Tiger”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2006/10/23/16303/)</p>

<p>On reflecting on the differences between Yale and Princeton, he admits he likes Yale’s “charged-up, intellectually tough atmosphere” where course sections “have more pop and sparkle than Princeton precepts”. He call the energetic buzz of Yale’s campus “exciting and bewildering.” This is exactly what I felt and Yale has not disappointed.</p>

<p>On the topic of conversation, in the following article he bemoans the lack of good, intellectual conversation among undergraduates. He insists that " Princeton, as I have known it for 35 years, doesn’t foster this kind of conversation as effectively as many of its sister institutions."</p>

<p>[The</a> culture of conversation - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/04/19/25903/]The”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/04/19/25903/)</p>

<p>Another quote is probably the most germane to this particular thread:</p>

<p>“Classrooms don’t exactly resound with brilliant repartee before sessions start or after they end. Years ago, a brilliant Princeton High School student explained to me why she had chosen Harvard over Princeton, after taking a number of excellent courses at the University in her teens. Hardly anyone at Princeton, she remarked, said anything in elevators or stairways or corridors on the way to class, or while seated and waiting for instructors. She couldn’t imagine going to college under such a pall of silence.”</p>

<p>I suppose one might dismiss these comments as the musings of one aging, grumpy professor. But I personally noticed much of the same as I looked very carefully at Princeton.</p>

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<p>@midatlmom – As this thread is called “Choosing Harvard over Princeton” all comments made by me or others are going to have some sort of bias. Having one kid at Harvard (my daughter absolutely hates it there – I wish she would transfer to Princeton if that would make her happier, but she’s too caught up in the damn brand name to see reason) and one kid at Yale (my son loves it there and is having a wonderful experience), both of whom turned down Princeton, I can only tell you why they made the choices they did. No institution is perfect, not H, Y or P. It’s all about finding the ‘best fit’, wherever that may be.</p>

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<p>These perceptions are always affected by prior bias, groupthink and stereotypes (all of which you see heavily represented here on the CC boards). I was accepted to Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, Yale and a number of other schools. I was very lucky. After having spoken with some graduates and professors, I decided against Stanford and focused on the other three. I came away with impressions very different from those formed by our Stanford and Yale friends posting above. During my multi-day visits to each of the institutions I came to feel that Princeton students and faculty were the most open and least comparison-obsessed of the three. I sat in on classes at each and found no differences whatsoever in the quality of intellectual discussion. I did get the impression that Yale students were more oriented toward the arts than their peers at the other two schools and that this affected the atmosphere on campus. I also found the built environment far more appealing at Princeton than at Harvard (where I chose to attend law school). I would disagree with some of the posters above regarding Yale. The campus is lovely and the area immediately surrounding it has been greatly improved since Yale began investing heavily in it by purchasing the neighboring commercial properties. Crime at the edges of the campus is, however, still a major issue. Cambridge also suffers from this but doesn’t seem to get the bad reviews that Yale gets, perhaps because it’s so close to Boston itself which is a very vibrant city. (I’ve posted my initial impressions of Princeton here: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/432489-all-things-i-learned-princeton-these-most-important.html#post5062293[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/432489-all-things-i-learned-princeton-these-most-important.html#post5062293&lt;/a&gt;)</p>

<p>These four schools are among the top educational institutions in the world. (See the recent Times Higher Education International Reputational Survey here: [Top</a> Universities by Reputation 2012](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/reputation-rankings.html]Top”>World Reputation Rankings 2012 | Times Higher Education (THE)) Yale dropped a spot in that new survey but is still in the top ten and all four of these schools are at the top of the list, joined by MIT, Berkeley, Oxford, Cambridge, UCLA and the U. of Tokyo) A bad choice cannot be made among them for those lucky enough to have multiple options. Remember, however, that it is a tiny handful of students who actually do get multiple acceptances to all four or even three of the four and get the option of choosing among them. Plenty of students at each will have made the decision not to apply to one or more of the others and may not have based that decision on good evidence. </p>

<p>In the years following my own graduation, I learned that the year I applied and was accepted the split among Harvard, Princeton and Yale was about what was expected. For the students accepted to all three, about half chose Harvard while Princeton and Yale split the other half evenly. Princeton tended to get more of the math/science/engineering/economics crowd while Yale got more of the arts and humanities students but even that difference wasn’t great. More recently, the changes in the use of early programs has muddied the waters somewhat but after everything settles I suspect it will go back to looking a lot like it did when I applied. Harvard will continue to have a higher matriculation rate than either Princeton or Yale both of which will have about the same rate. </p>

<p>It will always be possible to find disgruntled graduates of any school. Here’s a funny story. I know of a local Princeton Schools Committee (these committees help interview applicants) that has as a member, a Harvard College graduate who attended Princeton for graduate school and came away with such strong feelings about the differences between the two institutions that he now interviews Princeton applicants and encourages them to attend if accepted!</p>

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<p>PtonGrad2000, your thoughtful post made me even prouder that my son will be attending Princeton next fall. Thank you!</p>

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<p>Is Grafton always the one to compare Princeton to other universities (and decry that Princeton isn’t more like them)? I know he’s written two articles about Stanford/Princeton, and now one on Yale.</p>

<p>I don’t think intellectualism as people define it really exists. I seriously doubt that students at Chicago or Columbia (or any college that’s supposedly “intellectual”) sit around having profound conversations about Kant or classics. You won’t find that at HYPS or any university, except in very small niches.</p>

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<p>gibby-</p>

<p>Out of curiosity, what has turned your daughter off about her Harvard experience? What turns your son on about Yale? What do u see as the major differences btw the two schools?</p>

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<p>borodino: I don’t want to hijack this thread, so I’ll send you a private email.</p>

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<p>Just at my high school, 14 of the 20 Princeton/Harvard admits have chosen Princeton over Harvard over the past 5 years. I would choose Princeton over Harvard if admitted to both. I reject the premise of this thread; I think it is far too general and does not account for many factors that contribute to college experience.</p>

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<p>@gibby,
Do you mind sending me the PM as well?
I’m interested in learning about the differences between H/Y from someone who has a well-informed opinion on both schools.</p>

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<p>Gibby I would also appreciate the same pm </p>

<p>Sent from my LG-P509 using CC</p>

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<p>I would like the pm too gibby…
why not make a thread? lol</p>

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<p>ME TOO gibby please</p>

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<p>gibby… Go ahead and post the info here</p>

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<h2>My intent was NOT to hijack this thread, but as so many of you have asked, here goes. (Princeton students and parents, please feel free to compare the Princeton experience to my daughter and son’s experience at Harvard and Yale.)</h2>

<p>Harvard and Yale are both great schools. My daughter, who is a sophomore at Harvard, was rejected from Yale; my son, who is a freshman at Yale, was rejected from Harvard – so each is playing the hand they were dealt. (Both were accepted to Princeton, but turned it down for their respective schools.)</p>

<p>First off, a couple of clear differences: Harvard’s schedule is a lot more intense than Yale’s. During the fall semester, Harvard students do not get a break from school – except for Thursday and Friday of Thanksgiving week. Yale students, on the other hand, are off for 9 days, which includes the entire week of Thanksgiving. As a parent, that just seems a bit more humane. To a lesser extent, the same thing occurs in the spring semester: Harvard students have a week off for spring break; Yale students get two weeks off. </p>

<p>Harvard freshman live with, eat with, and socialize with other freshman. Harvard’s freshman really don’t socialize with upperclassmen, unless they make friends with older students through an extracurricular activity or a class. </p>

<p>At Yale, freshman eat with, and socialize with upperclassman in their colleges, so there is much more of a “big-sib, little-sib” atmosphere to the entire campus starting from your first day.</p>

<p>For our family, the “social tone” of Harvard and Yale was actually set on move-in day: </p>

<p>At Harvard, freshman move-in on the first day and there are virtually no other upperclass students to greet them or help them move-in. (Upperclass students move in several days later, but essentially sophomore, junior and senior students do not have contact with freshman.) At the end of move-in day at Harvard, parents say their goodbyes, and freshman go off to a series of orientation meetings.</p>

<p>At Yale, upperclass students move in on the first day and are required to help the freshmen move in on the third day. At Yale, our car was literally swarmed by 30 upperclass students on move-in day who unpacked our son’s belongings and carried them up to his room. In the afternoon there was a student-parent reception at the master’s house, followed by a dinner for freshman with the upperclass students in their colleges, and in the evening, there was a one huge party for the entire campus. </p>

<p>My daughter has a love/hate relationship with Harvard. She loves her classes, professors, extracurriculars (theater), and Cambridge . . . but she finds her fellow students a bit socially awkward, self-absorbed and competitive. (There’s a reason Harvard’s Administration instituted the freshman pledge – for whatever reason, Harvard students just do not seem naturally kind to each other. See: [Harvard</a> College Introduces Pledge for Freshmen To Affirm Values | News | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/9/1/pledge-freshmen-students-harvard/]Harvard”>Harvard College Introduces Pledge for Freshmen To Affirm Values | News | The Harvard Crimson).) My daughter also dislikes the party scene at Harvard, which is dominated by final clubs (see: [Final</a> Clubs: Safe Spaces to Party? | News | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/5/6/clubs-sexual-final-members/]Final”>Final Clubs: Safe Spaces to Party? | News | The Harvard Crimson). </p>

<p>When my daughter complains about Harvard, we say “Why don’t you transfer somewhere else – like Yale (or Princeton)?” Her response “What . . . and leave Harvard. I couldn’t do that.” She, like everyone else there, is caught up in the mystique of the place – even if it means not having the greatest college experience. </p>

<p>Recently, I met a woman who graduated from Harvard about fifteen years ago. Given our daughter’s feelings, I asked her how she enjoyed Harvard. Her response: “I hated it. And everyone I know hated it.” “Why did you stay?” I asked. “Because, I will never again have to prove to anyone else that I’m smart.” That seems to be my daughter’s thinking, as well.</p>

<p>My son is having a much better time at Yale. He also loves his classes, professors and extracurriculars – he played on Yale’s Club Baseball team this fall and is planning to do the same this spring. He really loves his college ([Yale</a> University | Saybrook College](<a href=“http://saybrook.yalecollege.yale.edu/]Yale”>http://saybrook.yalecollege.yale.edu/)) and has made many wonderful friends – both inside and outside of the classroom. Although my son very much wanted to follow his sister off to Harvard, I don’t think he would now trade places with her.</p>

<p>I hope all that helps.</p>

<p>gibby</p>

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<p>Gibby, thanks for posting your insights about these colleges. I have wondered about the social climate as well, should my daughter get accepted to any of them. I will keep this in mind. S transferred after his freshman year due to similar concerns. He never looked back and will graduate in May.</p>

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<p>Gibby, thanks for the info on Harvard and Yale</p>

<p>the conclusion?</p>

<p>Take the best of Harvard</p>

<p>and</p>

<p>Take the best of Yale</p>

<p>the result:</p>

<p>Princeton</p>

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<p>I don’t know enough about Princeton to say that you are correct. Princeton has it’s own issues, which is why I wanted current Princeton students and parents to comment on my post.</p>

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<p>I’m going to try to compile all of the negative stereotypes people have regarding the undergraduate experience at HYP:</p>

<p>Harvard
-Cold, competitive, antisocial environment
-Lack of undergraduate focus
-Lack of personal relationship between students and teachers
-Finals Club dominate social climate, if not bars/clubs in Cambridge/Boston
-People are there for the name and prestige</p>

<p>Yale
-Lack of diversity
-Intellectually snobby
-Secret Societies
-Much of school culture revolves around constantly being compared to Harvard
-New Haven is still fairly unsafe</p>

<p>Princeton
-Elitist, preppy, conservative WASPs
-Competition due to grade deflation
-Exclusive Eating Clubs
-Lack of intellectual curiosity</p>

<p>Just some overall thoughts about these stereotypes

  1. If you go to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, you are attending an inherently elitist academic institution. Saying that people at Princeton are more elitist than people at Yale or Harvard doesn’t quite make sense since each school attracts the same caliber of student and HYP has always been an elitist group of institutions.
  2. There is no way to measure intellectual curiosity. What one might find in a conversation to be “intellectually profound” might come off as “pompous and highfalutin” to another. Good conversation is subjective. There is no right way to exchange beliefs.
  3. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton are all hypercompetitive schools. While Harvard’s climate might be more skewed towards cold, antisocial behavior amongst students and Princeton’s grade deflation might cause unease in how one ranks in a class, overall, none of these universities is a walk in the park. You will always be competing against the best of the best for opportunities and awards at each of these schools. To imply that Princeton/Harvard are more competitive than Yale is silly. People just have a different way of channeling that stress, but that stress is nonetheless still there.
  4. With legacy admissions down, financial aid on the rise in these poor economic conditions, URM applications soaring, non-binding early admissions programs adopted, and representatives from many (if not all) of the States and dozens of foreign countries, diversity in ethnicity, geography, background, financial status, etc. is good at all of these universities.
  5. Finals Clubs, Eating Clubs, and Secret Societies are all elitist organizations within elitist institutions. Arguing that one is better than the other is foolish. A rose by any other name is still a rose.</p>

<p>There is no “right” answer for choosing Princeton over Yale, Yale over Harvard, or Harvard over Princeton. It’s a matter of which school’s individual strengths and philosophies and offerings align with your needs. And there are many different combinations of reasons for why one might choose a school to go to. In other words, this thread is pointless.</p>

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<p>I think it’s important to realize that different students will have different experiences at their choice of schools so readers need to see an individual’s experience as exactly what it is–one student’s scenario. </p>

<p>My D was accepted to Princeton and Harvard, visited both schools, and felt Harvard was a much better fit with her personality. </p>

<p>She can’t be happier at Harvard. She loved the move-in day, made a lot of friends, and found a friendly group of upperclassmen ready to help her on that day from different organizations. </p>

<p>She felt the students at Harvard are in general very driven, but are happy to help each other out in assignments and studying. She has so much resources to help her succeed that she is so grateful and taking advantage of them as much as she can. She has made so many upperclassman friends from EC activities who are refer her to many internship opportunities. We can’t be happier with Harvard. </p>

<p>There is probably too much of a weekend party scene at Harvard. But I am not sure if that’s unique to Harvard. </p>

<p>So this is just another student’s experience.</p>

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<p>Re: final clubs, you don’t bother them, they don’t bother you.
Re: party scene, there is a lot of drinking but no one will force you to comply with their way of having fun. For example, while others party, there is also a group of students who gather on Friday night for a fun worship service with lots of singing and praising and then have pizza and watch Kungfu Panda afterwards.</p>