Choosing - Smith v Wellesley v MHO

Colleges and Universities A-Z Smith College
141

<p>Boudicca, although Wesleyan may be rated higher than Smith, it does NOT have a better reputation except among those who scour the rankings. For one, people always get it confused with Wellesley, and, when they find out it's not Wellesley, there's always an "Oh . . . " factor. In academia, Smith and Wellesley both trump Wesleyan, although academics still know that Wesleyan is a fine school, one of the top LACs in the country.</p>

<p>That said, I really don't think students should make their decisions based on prestige, especially when comparing top liberal arts schools. If Wesleyan feels like a "fit," and you don't think you can cope with a single-gender atmosphere, then that's where you should go. Or maybe Wellesley felt like home the moment you stepped on campus. Or maybe you sat in on a class at Smith and loved the level of discussion. Don't split hairs over rankings and prestige factors.</p>

<p>Attend classes when you visit the schools. It will tell you a lot about the kind of students and educational atmosphere. No matter what, you'll get an extraordinary education; now you just want to add comfort to the decision.</p>

142

<p>
[quote]
Don't split hairs over rankings and prestige factors.

[/quote]

Frame that.</p>

<p>One can always produce numbers (rankings). The question then is, are they meaningful? I know someone who believes in astrology because "it uses numbers and everything." A college grad. But not in math.</p>

143

<p>I've noticed a similar thing about Wesleyan. People tend to get it mixed up with Wellesley. Heck, I got them confused at one point, too. I really don't think it's any better known than Smith.</p>

144

<p>about the grad school thing--i think that part of the difference in statistics is that more Smithies take time off (doing things like Americorps, Teach for America, Fulbrights, etc) before going on to grad school--probably Wellesley students still go to grad school in higher numbers than Smithies, but I bet the differences get smaller if you look 5-10 years past graduation instead of only one. That may have something to do with the greater economic diversity at Smith; some students might want to save some money and pay back some student loans before taking on more.</p>

<p>At my law school, there are Smithies from the class of '97 and '03 along with me (I'm an '06), and another '03 is coming here next year. Among the Smithies I know who applied to law school the same year I did, one '05 is now at Columbia after doing a Fulbright, another '05 is at Harvard, an '04 is at Cardozo, and an '06 is at Penn. So Smithies certainly can and do go to good law schools! I'd be glad to talk more with interested students and parents about Smith's pre-law experience...feel free to PM me.</p>

145

<p>our experience/observations is consisten with Stacy's: </p>

<p>My wife is a Smith grad who can attest that she had plenty of professional school options after Smith. She concentrated in biochem/music there went on to Stanford med. She had a lot of other options (research, academic, etc.) after graduation.</p>

<p>As already noted by Stacy, above, it's important to note that Smith students have generally a very diverse bunch. When we were both undergrad (10+ yrs ago), "non-traditional" students made up a large segment of the SC population Ada Comstock scholars (~10%), CC transfers (~10%), international (~20%) etc.), with equally diverse interests.</p>

<p>As noted in another thread, Smith has also been tops for Pell Grants, higher than Wellesley, Amherst, etc. (something like 27% vs 17%).</p>

<p>Wellesley and Smith are as distinct as two great LACs are going to get. You'll just have to visit both schools (and surroundings) again!</p>

146

<p>As far as alum connections go, Wellesley's CWS is an excellent resource for connections, resumes, internship sponsering, "what am I gonna do with my life" type stuff. It is also a "for life" resource.</p>

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<p>The Financial Shape of the Respective Student Bodies</p>

<p>I did some deeper digging into the financial differences of families that send their kids off to Smith. Unfortunately, Wellesley doesn't post its Common Data Set - but Smith, Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore do.</p>

<p>What I discovered (from examining the 2006-2007 Common Data Sets) is (as I thought), even independent of Pell Grant status of Smith students, the differences are profound:</p>

<p>Williams gave out $22,978,912 in institutional need based grant aid. Out of 1,965 students, 842 received it, or 42.0%. Since most EFC calculators will indicate that, in most circumstances, need-based aid cuts out at around $170k in family income (of course, it will vary), the median Williams family is way above that. From other figures I have seen, it is likely around $275k, give or take, but there is no hard data source.</p>

<p>Swarthmore gave out $17,541,430 in institutional need-based grant aid. Out of 1,472 students, 719 received it, or 48.8%. So the median family likely earns around $180k. In addition, they gave out 11 merit scholarships to students who didn't require need, worth $362,532 - these are obvious very large merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Amherst gave out $23,568,803 in need-based grants. Out of 1,654 students, 768 received it, or 45.3%. So median family income is somewhere north of $200k. Note that while they gave aid to a smaller number of students than Williams, the financial aid budget is larger, indicating their commitment to enroll significant numbers of low-income students.</p>

<p>Smith gave out $39,500,462 in institutional need-based grants. Out of 2,717 students, 1,609 received it, or 59.2%. Median family income for the school as a whole is likely around $125k give or take. Of the 1,609, roughly 650 were Pell Grantees, with family incomes below $45k. In addition, $769,888 in non-need-related merit grants were given to 187 additional students, or roughly $4k each - in other words, lots of little grants (lots of STRIDES.)</p>

<p>There's nothing "good" or "bad" in any of these numbers. They simply reflect different profiles and different institutional missions. It likely explains, for example, why fewer Smith students percentagewise are willing to take on additional debt loads for professional schools, at least right after college graduation.</p>

<p>I am not sure which of these schools looks most like Wellesley.</p>

<p>I can check on other schools, if anyone is interested - though you can all get this information from perusing the Common Data Sets (if they are posted.)</p>

148

<p>I'm not either. I'm sort of shocked that the median family income for Smith (the lowest) is at $125k!</p>

<p>Holy crap!</p>

<p>(WendyMouse's family makes much less than that).</p>

149

<p>Thank you Mini for posting the comparisons -- I'm really impressed by Smith's FA stats.</p>

150

<p>Mini, is that "real" Gross Income or Adjusted Gross Income (per tax returns) for family income? I'm guessing AGI.</p>

151

<p>The "Income" (which is extrapolated - from the spread of incomes around the $170k/no aid mark) is whatever income is used to figure out need-based aid.</p>

<p>Please remember that medians are different than averages. The average at Smith "might" be lower, based on the 650 Pell grantees. The average at Williams "might" be higher, given the small number of Pell grantees. I don't believe there is a good direct source for this information, and hence must be extrapolated. The median income of those receiving aid is substantially lower at Smith than at Williams or Swarthmore (way lower than $125k), but likely very similar to that at Amherst (which, statistically, has very few middle-income students.)</p>

152

<p>Need-Based Aid from Common Data Sets</p>

<p>As promised, selected data taken from some prestigious colleges/universities that guarantee to meet 100% of need. Usually, data is taken from the 2006-2007 CDS; in a few cases where that isn?t posted yet, the 2005-2006 CDS is used. It should be noted that there are schools that do not seem to post the CDS, among them Harvard, Tufts, Wellesley, Johns Hopkins, WUSTL, Columbia, Chicago, and Penn.</p>

<p>The first number is the amount given in institutional aid in the form of needs-based grants. When merit aid is used to meet need, the general rule is that it is counted as needs-based in all the data, except the total amount of needs-based aid. The second and third numbers are enrollment/number receiving needs-based grant aid; the fourth number is percentage receiving needs-based grant aid; the fifth number is average size of needs-based grant; the sixth number is average needs-based grant per student attending (i.e. the needs-based budget/enrollment).</p>

<p>Interpret as you like:</p>

<p>Amherst - $23,568,803, 1654/768, 46.4%, $31,393, $14,250
Barnard - $19,171,414, 2296/917, 39.9%, $24,611, $8,350
Bowdoin - $16, 285,150, 1660/734, 44.2%, $24,785, $9,810
Brown - $46,330,000, 5864/2337, 39.7%, $22,224, $7,901
Carleton - $21,435,032, 1959/1070, 54.6%, $23,279, $10,974
Claremont-McK - $11,693,280, 1151/524, 45.5%, $23,674, $10,159
Cornell - $102,833,211, 13462/5864. 43.2%, $21,184, $7,639
Dartmouth - $45,630,575, 3991/2000, 50.2%, $25,303, $11,433
Davidson - $9,981,805, 1683/540, 32.1%, $16,383, $5,931
Emory - $43,631,673, 6486/2414, 37.2%, $27,011, $6,727
Grinnell - $15,060,078, 1556/850, 54.6%, $19,317, $9,679
Hamilton - $19,618,055, 1799/881, 49.0%, $22,565, $10,905
Haverford - $10,501,626, 1168/479, 41.0%, $24,073, $8,991
Middlebury - $25,888,000, 2365/1011, 42.7%, $24,468, $10,946
Mt. Holyoke - $28,032,732, 2252/1273, 56.5%, $23,948, $12,448
Northwestern - $59,303,584, 7826/3268, 41.8%, $21,489, $7,578
Pomona - $18,237,526, 1532/808, 52.7% $25,484, $11,904
Princeton - $53,597,900, 4678/2340, 50.0%, $25,303, $11,457
Reed - $15,781,454, 1365/625, 45.8%, $27,018, $11,562
Scripps - $7,776,366, 857/351, 41.0%, $25,057, $9,074
Smith - $39,500,462, 2717/1609, 59.2%, $26,372, $14,538
Swarthmore - $17,451,430, 1472/719, 48.8%, $26,411, $11,855
Wash/Lee - $7,854,734, 1754/426, 24.3%, $18,370, $4,478
Williams - $22,978,912, 1965/842, 42.8%, $29,713, $11,694
Yale - $55,900,852, 5340/2232, 41.8%, $27,932, $10,468</p>

<p>A cursory look at the data compared with similar runs I did two years ago does not indicate significant changes, with the exceptions of Amherst and Princeton (as new, more generous policies now cover students in all four years), and to a lesser extent, Williams (where the size of grants has risen, though not the percentage of students receiving them). On the whole, given COA increases in the past two years, I think the schools are slightly less generous (or students are wealthier) than they were then, but I?m not sure about the statistical significance.</p>

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<p>Hello, everyone. I just registered onto this site today because I was curious of what others thought about this school. Just sent my deposit this morning and coming on here to check if I have made the correct decision.</p>

<p>I really would love to go to the open house but I live on Guam. Coming from a small island, with little city life, and not use to temperatures below 80 degrees, will I like Noho? In addition, I went to a EXTREMELY easy school for most of my life until senior year when I got fed up with the lack of homework. (Yeah, I'm weird.) In 12th grade, I switched to the most elite school on the island and found it quite stressful even though I only get like 2 homeworks a night. Haha. So, would Smith overwhelm me? =s</p>

<p>Now, do not underestimate me. I LOVE to study. I memorize and learn things quickly. I write practically at least 8 hours a week, and I have high hopes of getting into law school in the future. I guess what drives me to try harder is to impress my parents. Being the oldest, I am always pressured to be an example for my brothers and stuff like that. It's funny how Seattle University and Scripps were my top choices before I knew what Smith really was. To be honest, I applied for Smith because I just wanted a backup school in Massachusetts and slacked off on the essays I sent them. To my surprise and confusion, when I told my college guidance counselor I got into this school, he was extremely proud. It was then I learned that it was quite a prestigious school and that Nancy Reagan and Barbara Bush attended it too. </p>

<p>Okay, there I go again, rambling off and typing too much as usual. Sorry. But to the point: I hope I can enjoy this school, no matter its lifestyle differs with mine. </p>

<p><3</p>

154

<p>Kakari, you may find Smith difficult at first, given your background, but most students find their stride after a couple of semesters, no matter how easy or difficult their high school was. Good time management is essential at any college, and those students who do it well from the start tend to be those with better first year grades.</p>

155

<p>kakari89: I come from a part of California where the temperature generally doesn't get below freezing or above 80 degress (and not especially humid). I just got back from Smith, and it was like a bad winter here in California. Cold, rainy, and even patches of ice still on the ground. This is April, so things must get really dreadful in the winter. However, getting used to harsh weather is something that I feel I should get used to, which is why going to the East Coas doesn't bother me so much. </p>

<p>As for the high school thing: What high school you attending will probably affect your first semester or year in college [at any college, really]. However, if you love to study, I'm sure you'll adapt quickly. Also, when I visited Smith, people told me that the tougness of the academics were largely related to what classes you're taking. I supposed that, if you feel too stressed at college, you can lighten your workload and be fine.</p>

156

<p>Arianne, this isn't "typical" weather right now. Sure, it rains in April, but it's not usually this cold (and it was snowing yesterday). </p>

<p>The winter itself was actually mild - I've been told it was warmer on Christmas than on Easter, and there was a 70 degree day in January. By March, snow this winter didn't seem likely, until it snowed on the Friday before spring break and a lot of people were stuck at school for a few extra days (myself included). Hopefully next year we'll have more typical weather cycles.</p>

<p>(The coldest weather is usually during January, and you're not required to be on campus then so it's possible to avoid it.)</p>