CIT VS Harvey Mudd?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvey Mudd College
1

<p>pros and cons?
financial aid?
I'm leaning towards Harvey Mudd right now...</p>

<p>any comparisons would help
thanks</p>

2

<p>hey, here's some stuff that was posted in response to similar questions on other threads. sorry for the discontinuity between them...you're smart, so you can piece it together....</p>

<p>"My class (09) is the last class to have the traditional coursework. They are revamping academics (in particular the humanities, and changing the core CS requirement from Java to Python). They are making the load a little bit more flexible for the students. Your class will be the first. 8-9 classes per semester is a challenging load, especially when 7 of them are technical.</p>

<p>You know, to be quite honest, I hate and love Mudd at the same time. I emailed MIT to see if I could transfer last minute (last week) but unfortunately, I missed the deadline. Mudd is extremely difficult (probably still with the revamping as well). </p>

<p>You are lucky to get 5 hours a sleep a night--- infact that is a good night's sleep. Last night, I was very excited to get 6. A normal sleeping amount for frosh Sunday-Tuesday is 4 hours (hw till 3:30, up at 7:30, class at 8). Perhaps this is why my beard has gone formed white patches. Rest assured, however, you can sleep after class or on Thursdays and Fridays a lot. </p>

<p>Now for the reason I am still here--- You honestly receive an education that is unparalleled...virtually to anywhere. I know, deep down (thru the battered depression), that I am getting my money's worth...and that is saying a lot considering it is $44k/yr. People hype on their schools because they are proud...that is understandable. I hear a lot of crap... "UCB is so much better than Harvey Mudd. Infact, what kind of a name is Harvey Mudd?! Haha". Caltech students rip on you because they think that Mudd is a cheap imitation. It is not. In fact, Mudd has pulled up into the ranks (and beating) of MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Yale, and Stanford when our students compete against each-other in academic challenges.</p>

<p>Mudd is only an option for you if you are a strong enough to put aside pop-culture recognition and common prestige. I am a pretty resilient/tough person. I have done div I drumcorps, drumline for 4 years, worked at JPL, and got myself through school. I was the best in math/science (and in some fields of music) at my HS. I tutored the tutors.</p>

<p>When I got to Mudd, everything changed. You have to find it in yourself to not let an opportunity like Mudd slip through your fingers if you are able/willing to accept. You WILL get depressed. You WILL cry. You WILL think you are stupid. When you leave Mudd (even for breaks), you then realize how incredibly smart/sharp you are even to those that you revered genius before...those friends in HS who went to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, UC Berkeley.</p>

<p>Mudd is a bubble. It has some crazy phenomenon going on. People here are absolutely brilliant (60% are). This school is worthy of a movie script. Although it may be depressing to never see an "A" again, the rigor/talents of Mudd do not go unnoticed by graduate schools. As an example, a guy down the hall just got into UC Berkeley, Stanford ($170k fellowship), CalTech, and MIT for grad electrical engineering. "</p>

<p>this student was curious about chem at mudd vs cit and wanted to do undergraduate research...here's my response....
"Admiral,
You bring up some good points about they differences between Mudd and CalTech. In my opinion, CalTech is by far a prettier campus, as you said...don't worry...we all know we go to an ugly school!
I'm afraid that there are a few things that are misleading in your undergraduate endeavors to pursue chemistry (more specifically, do research as an undergrad).
First, CalTech boasts a very low student to faculty ratio. It is something like 3-1 or 4-1. Unfortunately, they include research faculty in the count, which you will never interact with as an undergrad. (I know this because I actually just talked to my phyics lab professor today who is full-time research faculty at CalTech and is a visiting professor at Mudd but just decided to come to Mudd as a full-time professor.)
This leads me to my second point, which is that although CalTech is a world-famous research institute, that does not mean that undergrads are guaranteed any research during their four years. CalTech gets most of their money and prestige from the grad school, not the undergrads. You will be taught heavily by TA's, like my physics lab professor (when she was doing grad at CalTech).
While CalTech has astounding facilities, they neglect to tell you that 90% of it is off limits to undergrad. I know this from talking to my prof and because I worked at JPL (paid by CalTech) 2 summers ago. This issue is swept under the carpet for undergrad. (As I understand, there are a few acceptions from time to time though.)
Point 3 (or 4)- Harvey Mudd currently has the highest percentage of chemistry grads who go on to get PhD's in the nation, including CalTech. (I do believe this source says 80% <a href="http://www.chem.hmc.edu/www_common/...ive/intro06.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.chem.hmc.edu/www_common/...ive/intro06.htm&lt;/a> ) Although Mudd is not recognized by the general public, it has sent shock waves to the grad schools.</p>

<p>Here is the biggie- Mudd requires Clinic, CalTech does not have Clinic. If you want to talk about real research of real-life problems, you are required to do at least 1 year of this at Harvey Mudd. </p>

<p>General Research:
<a href="http://www.chem.hmc.edu/www_common/chemistry/research/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.chem.hmc.edu/www_common/chemistry/research/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I can't find a link for chemistry Clinic right now. I'm sorry.</p>

<p>I'm an engineer, so I'm sure I have different criterion for school. I wanted somewhere that I could do undergraduate research and somewhere that I could talk personally to profs and such. With that, I thought (and think) Mudd is a better choice."</p>

<p>regarding grad school, wait lists, and social life (someone else wrote this)...
"First of all, while many people do have issues with this school's academics (including me) there are also many who dont (like many of my friends, who have GPAs > 3.5).</p>

<p>Now to adress specific things:</p>

<p>Admiral: The rankings I've seen have put Mudd way up at the top for undergraduate chemistry, and as a biochem major, I can personally vouch for the professors here and say that they are incredible. Every one that I've met so far (and I've met most of them) has been great. Also, there is no clinic for chemistry; instead, all senior chem majors are required to do research. You want to do research as an undergrad? Seriously, come here. Beyond the required senior research, there are also many opportunities within the chem department for underclassmen to do research, as well as several summer opportunities. You might not have as broad a range of topics as could potentially be available at a bigger institution, but there's definitely a better chance of getting into it, and there's a pretty good range of project topics anyway. Also, do you really want to pick your school based on it's architecture? Sure, Mudd doesn't have the prettiest campus, but it's not awful... and I can guarantee if you come here, you'll stop thinking about it pretty quickly. And of course, if you want something a little prettier, that's when you go visit Scripps and Pomona. On that note, there are a lot of people who cross register. If you want to take any foreign language, you'll have to go off campus (I took a French class at Pitzer last semester), and the other schools have a lot to offer as well. I suppose it's technically possible to fulfill all your requirements at Mudd, but it's kinda nice to get a change of scenery once in a while.</p>

<p>hypernovae: It IS possible to get in off the waitlist. I saw something a page or two back about officially posted stats re: the waitlist the year I enrolled here saying that no one got in off of it, but I'm a little confused as to where that information is coming from, cause there's a guy that went to my high school that was originally waitlisted but then got a full ride. So you can get in off the waitlist AND get money. I don't know how often that happens, but it does happen. </p>

<p>hallo88: If you want to have a social life at Mudd, it's very doable. Many of us love to party, and there's almost always something going on at least one of the weekend nights. And if there's nothing at Mudd, you could probably find something at one of the other schools. We become a very close knit group, and you get to know pretty much everyone in your class, as well as many from other classes. I don't know as many people from the other schools, but I'm working on that. Have no fear, you can still have a social life if you come here, as long as you learn to manage your studies as well (or you can just go out and have fun anyway, and worry about classes during the week, like I do)"</p>

<p>regarding how much we sleep (or lack) and being able to get excellent jobs right out of mudd...
"4-5 hours a night is a pretty good estimate for most school nights. some nights will be 3, some will be 6.</p>

<p>about finding a good job after mudd (or during summers):
career services are pretty good. here are some entry level jobs:
<a href="http://www.hmc.edu/admin/career/stu...ryLevelJobs.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hmc.edu/admin/career/stu...ryLevelJobs.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>you're worrying too much. i suppose that you just have to "trust" and go for the ride. that's really all i have to say. </p>

<p><<the things="" that="" are="" worthwhile="" those="" difficult.="">>"</the></p>

<p>again, sorry for the mess. i hope that helps.</p>

3

<p>last night, i went to a professor's house (computer science) (with 3 other students) to have dinner with his family. it was an amazing experience. we just had a good time and talked about all sorts of stuff... for 6 hours! mudd encourages this stuff so much, they paid for the food to be catered by a Mediterranean restuarant!</p>

<p>anyways, besides it being an absolutely awesome experience, i would also like to point out that like caltech, we get absolute top-notch professors. most got their PhD's from caltech, mit, stanford, harvard, yale, princeton, berkeley. you don't have to worry about them being brilliant- because they are! one of the distinctive differences is that all mudd profs are here to teach; there is no ulterior motive.</p>

4

<p>apparently, CMU grad school has a special "weighting factor" when looking at the GPAs of only two schools: CalTech and Harvey Mudd. (they don't weight anyone else)</p>

<p>i don't know if that puts things into perspective.</p>

5

<p>Let me preface this by saying that two years I ago I had to choose between MIT/Caltech/Harvey Mudd (among other schools, but those were the top three I wanted to attend). Harvey Mudd offered me quite a bit of merit money. I choose Caltech, and MIT was my second choice. I was interested in physics then, and that is my major now. </p>

<p>Let me also say that either Harvey Mudd or Caltech will give you a wonderful education, assuming you want to major in math/science/engineering. Neither Caltech nor Harvey Mudd is the best school for all science/math/engineering disciplines, but they have incredibly strong programs across the board. </p>

<p>There are several reasons I choose Caltech over Harvey Mudd, and I’ll give a few of them here.</p>

<p>1) Caltech has a graduate school
In science/math I strongly, strongly believe a school having a graduate program is advantageous. The caliber and level of the research at a university simply cannot be matched by schools without a graduate program. I do think that Harvey Mudd professors do interesting research (I’ve looked over the physics department a bit), but I don’t believe it’s the Nobel Prize quality of work that is regularly found in Caltech laboratories. Also, I don’t think that Harvey Mudd has enough faculty to adequately provide opportunities in all areas in a department. Caltech barely does for that matter. This could very well limit your interests, which is by no means unimportant. </p>

<p>In terms of getting into graduate school, Professor recommendations play a key role, and I would argue that students have a better opportunity for stronger recommendations at Caltech simply because of how well known the faculty are. The Mudd faculty are also well known, mind you, but many of the Caltech professors are simply at the top of their fields. </p>

<p>2) Caltech 3-1 faculty ratio (Harvey Mudd is what? 7-1?)</p>

<p>

This is not true - or is at least not true for the majority of the faculty (from my experience). There are certainly professors who only do research, but this is not a bad thing by any means. Indeed, because there are so many different groups, it’s quite easy for students to actively become involved in research, and again, this research is usually at the forefront of the field. </p>

<p>Consequently the 3-1 professor-student ratio is not advantageous for the standard reasons. Normally, rankings value low ratios because they imply low class sizes. Here, though, the low ratio is indicative of students ability to find research opportunities. This ease for research is intensified by Caltech’s affiliation with JPL, which is a powerful asset. I know Mudd also sends people to JPL, but let us agree that Caltech is more closely tied to it. </p>

<p>

I can pretty much assure you that any student who wants research (and is willing to email a professor <em>gasp</em>) will get research during their time at Tech. Concerning TA’s, I certainly don’t feel that I’ve been ‘heavily taught’ by TA’s. TA’s mainly run recitation sections, which I actually appreciate. For example, while professors can answer general topic questions, in my time here, I’ve discovered that graduate students are often better at answering questions relating to specific problems – i.e. helping on homework. </p>

<p>

While I won’t guarantee that undergraduates can work in every group, this certainly has not been my personal experience (nor that of people around me). Research opportunities aren’t going to come to you, but again, they’re there if you’re looking and capable. </p>

<p>

That’s amusing! Sounds about right to me.</p>

<p>

That is more intimate interaction than I generally see at Caltech – sounds pretty cool. It varies from department to department, and I’m not completely familiar with the ‘average’ level of outside academic (classes or research) interaction with faculty. It’s certainly not none, but probably not commonly as much as this case. edit: we do have programs in place for encouraging students to go out with faculty.</p>

<p>

I’m not convinced you have a better chance of getting research at HMC than Caltech – I think dedicated students will find opportunities at both.</p>

<p>

I don’t think Harvey Mudd is a cheap imitation than Caltech. Again, I really think you can get a fantastic education at Mudd; I just think Caltech provides better opportunities and has a better atmosphere for learning. </p>

<p>Now all that being said, your own decision is just that – your own. Once you’re adequately informed, pick whichever one you feel has the best fit for you. I would suggest that you take a look at the individual departments before you choose, though. See which professors’ research interests you. Hell, email professor sand ask what their policies are about taking students in! Read everything you can find about the schools through their websites and the forums here. If you have specific questions, there are plenty of people that can find you an answer. </p>

<p>After you do all of that, the best way to choose is just listen to your gut. The right choice is the one that you are happy with and won’t have regrets about. Good luck and have some fun with this – it’s a good decision to have to make!</p>

6

<p>er umm...by CIT I actually think the original poster might be referring to a specific school in CMU.</p>

<p>See
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=120317%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=120317&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Given that, go to Harvey Mudd. Go!</p>

<p>(sorry if you read all that lol...maybe I can use that later...)</p>

7

<p>I did mean the CIT in Carnegie Mellon...oops
Still, thanks for all of the help.</p>

8

<p>cghen, i would just like to clarify, i did not write everything in my post.... i pulled from other places. i wrote about half of it.</p>

9

<p>Yeah, sorry I didn't mean to imply you did - I just wasn't sure who did. </p>

<p>I used your name more to say where the quote was from (i.e. your post) rather than who said it.</p>

10

<p>Hey cghen, I am just curious. These research opportunities that you say undergrads can get with one email to a prof: what kind of work do they usually do in those groups? Are they actively involved in the experimentation and data analysis and creation of the papers? Or are they more along the lines of slaves that do grunt labor? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm really curious and just want to know.</p>

11

<p>tahir rocks</p>

12

<p>

That's certainly a fair question, and I think it varies quite a bit. In general, the further along you are (and consequently the stronger your background) the more likely you are to be doing non-menial things. </p>

<p>Caltech does it's best to avoid grunt labor, however. Most of the opportunities for summer work is through what's called a SURF (<a href="http://www.surf.caltech.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.surf.caltech.edu/&lt;/a&gt;), and they really want undergraduate students to have their own, independent project for the summer. They basically want students working on research where it's feasible that they can become a first or second author in a reputable journal. If you're really interested, I can PM you a copy of my SURF proposal (in chemical physics) as a gauge of what I think they’re looking for. Now, even though students have their own little project doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not grunt work – some projects, well require grunt work, but the idea is that it won’t ALL be grunt work, and that students are active in all phases of the research and should have the possibility of coming out with nice results!</p>

<p>Some of the undergraduate research work is published in a journal Caltech has called CURJ. They post their issues online (<a href="http://www.curj.caltech.edu/archive.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.curj.caltech.edu/archive.php&lt;/a&gt;), and if you browse through a few issues you should get an indication of what undergraduate students are doing. </p>

<p>Also, I may have been over-doing it a bit when I said one email – you usually have to go talk to the professor as well, or at least I did, lol.</p>

13

<p>I'm surprised neither Tahir nor Graham addressed this earlier, but about Mudd's honor code...
It's almost identical to Caltech's. If you want to try and claim superiority for other aspects of your school, cghen, feel free, but I'm not letting you go anywhere with this one.</p>

<p>The Mudd Honor Code:
"Each member of ASHMC is responsible for maintaining his or her integrity and the integrity of the college community in all academic matters and in all affairs concerning the community."</p>

<p>Like you, we have take home tests. Like you, we collaborate on homeworks, and it is encouraged that we do so. Like you, we trust our fellow students (we're only forced to lock our doors because of members of the greater community that take advantage of the trust within the school). And, all Mudd students have access to all buildings at all hours... we're not allowed into labs w/o a prof, usually, but we all are told the keycode to get into the academic buildings (to drop off/pick up tests, hw, lab writeups, etc).</p>

<p>I'd also like to make a few more comments about research at Mudd. It is incredibly easy to get research here. There's a great system in place (at least for the bio and chem departments) for applying for summer research, and I, with no research experience, got my top choice of projects, with virutally no background in what I'll be working on (and I didn't have to put much effort into the application process, either). Also, all chem and bio majors, and i think some seniors in the other majors as well, are required to do research for their senior thesis. Those that don't do research do clinic, which is pretty much the same thing, except you're working with professionals in the field, solving problems for them and often creating contacts for jobs after graduation. </p>

<p>Ok, I'm done. I don't think Caltech's a lesser school by any means; I think it's very much one of those "to each his own" kind of things, but don't knock Mudd, please, especially on the Mudd forum. We can both be amazing. And I suppose none of this is really relevant to the original poster, and it's just become our own little school pride thing, so it's probably time to let it go...</p>

14

<p>


Yes, actually this is really similar to Caltech’s honor code. I’m glad you posted this. I tried to imply that I didn’t really know about Mudd’s honor code (though I probably should have looked it up before posting). I said I was pretty sure it was different because most of the schools I’ve looked at don’t have such an honor code, so I was (falsely) assuming the same for Mudd. </p>

<p>


I think it’s clear that I was mainly responding to some pretty strong accusations of Caltech in post #2. I was concerned that the OP was making this decision based on some information (about Caltech) which I didn’t feel was true.</p>

<p>


I don’t think I ever implied anything to the contrary.</p>