Clarifying Stereotypes about the Ivies

College Search & Selection
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<p>First of all, I'm going to post this in several places. I do hope the mods will forgive me, for last time I posted in multiple areas, which was months ago, I was reprimanded by email, although I had no idea I was committing such a CC-faux pas. </p>

<p>Anyway, on with it. I'm writing this because there are many of you out there who seem to be confused, angry, or simply misinformed regarding the atmospheres at Ivy League institutions and the personalities of the people attending. In general, the stereotype is that anyone who attends one of the infamous "HYP" - College Confidential vernacular for "Harvard/Yale/Princeton" which totally confused me the first time I visited this website - is a snob. </p>

<p>(Now I do realize that this is a dramatic overgeneralization, and I also realize that there are five other Ivies besides Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, but this is only secondary to the point.)</p>

<p>The truth is, everyone, that these schools are not filled with snobs. In fact, I know people who attend and who have attended each of these schools, as well as a number of people attending various other Ivies, and not a single one of them is snobby. Most kids who go to those schools are into rap music and partying, but each one has a genuine interest in something rather academic, which is usually how they end up at their respective schools. My best friend from last year listens to Ashlee Simpson religiously and has the best social life ever, but she also loves to learn languages. She's working on her fourth romance language right now at college. </p>

<p>Most freshmen at Ivies are really just big highschoolers. I mean, they take the same time to adjust to the new climate as other college freshmen do. </p>

<p>I often hear "Yale? Why would you want to go there? Just for a big name? Everyone there is so pretentious." The reality is, a pretty small number of them is pretentious, or even mildly egotistical. All the kids i know who go there are remarkably well personable and cool. No one is ever like, "OMG I GO HERE I'M BETTER THAN YOU ALKJHYT." Never. </p>

<p>Well, there is always the exception. We can't make excuses for the few kids who brag and bother everyone. </p>

<p>But the rest of the kids are way cool; they just are really smart, too. </p>

<p>Anyway, I hope this has been helpful. I was just reading the Harvard thread, and I saw someone asking if the kids at Harvard are uptight and lame. Biased as I am, the kids at Harvard are not lame, nor are they uptight - they're just like you. So don't be intimidated. You just might be the best thing that ever happened to those places.</p>

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<p>They are not lame. They are not uptight. They are well-spoken, and SMART.</p>

<p>But also rich. Between 50-60% of the students receive no financial aid whatsoever, which means their families are in the top 5% of the U.S. population economically speaking (and a high percentage even higher than that). Nothing wrong with that, and no reflection on the students, but they aren't particularly diverse in that respect. Fewer than 10% of students at each of the schools comes from the bottom 35% of the U.S. population (are on Pell Grants), and H. reports that they have even fewer in the next quintile upwards. </p>

<p>This will affect everything from how a student spends vacation time, the amount of pocket money they have, the cars they drive, the ECs they pursue, the clothes they wear, the number of times they have been abroad, the number of languages they speak, the contacts they have for internships, the need to carry a campus job (or send money home to support their families). There is nothing wrong with any of this; it is just is a fact of their existence.</p>

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<p>Mini: there are plenty of people who don't get aid, but don't have the money to live th lavish lifestyle you impute. Having enough money to pay for an expensive college means, for many people, living extremely frugally besides. My S gets no pocket money from us, whens he home has the choice of borrowing the 10 year old Caravan, or the new car--the 9 year old Neon, wears discount store clothes, the only time he's been abroad is the bus trip the band took to Niagara last spring, he speaks one language (can read a very little Latin), has no contacts for internships, and is seeking a campus job. Has never attended a summer program except for what our rec dept offers, and went to public HS (average SAT--926), His ECs were mostly marching band, etc in the HS. i bet our neighborhood is as much and probably more multiracial and multi-SES than yours. You just can't make assumptions about people based on the FA level.</p>

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<p>I can only assume based upon what the Census tells us, and what the colleges tell us. Situations will vary. The 5%-tile rank for household income in the United States is $152k per year. The median family income is $43k. The difference is 353%.</p>

<p>A deputy assistant secretary for a government department in our state makes roughly $72k. The average home in our community goes for $180k. Assuming a couple were married, together (with two kids in the family), they would still qualify for aid at HYP.</p>

<p>The families represented at HYP are very, VERY rich by U.S. standards, and there's no two ways about it. (Just for a little mind experiment, imagine that you were living on $43k, just like the average American, and then imagine how much discretionary income you'd have either for college savings or tuition payments.)</p>

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<p>Garland, I only know as much about you as you write here so I cannot say that you do not struggle with your finances. What I will say is that anyone who can afford to pay for a private school education and still survive is not my idea of a poor family. Trust me, I have been poor my whole life and still primarily associate with poor people. Now, relatively speaking if you have an income of 50,000/yr and you are paying ½ of that for your child’s education then you definitely will notice the difference. Then again, you still have $25,000 to live off. I am not saying it is not difficult for you to live off of 25,000/yr because it probably is (I have no idea how much you really make) but I know people who would do anything to make 25,000/yr. Another thing to note is that you are probably the exception and not the rule. A few people like you will have an immaterial affect on the percentages mini gave above.</p>

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<p>I posted the last post without reading mini's post.</p>

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<p>Please don't misunderstand me: we are totally comfortable. I am not complaining. We don't need aid and we don't expect it. The school I work for is attended by almost all Pell grant recepients. I work every day with students who are truly poor. I know the difference.</p>

<p>Mini: you're lecturing the wrong person. In th past, we lived on one third of our income, paid one third to school, saved one third because my H is quitting medicine to be a high school teacher. This year he's working at half pay to take the classes. We didn't try to get aid anyway. We don't need it--we live below our means because we don't need stuff. My kids know how to not need or want stuff.</p>

<p>If you'll re-read my post, I said that you shouldn't assume anything about people lifestyles from the aid they get. The typical student you described is not my kids, for whom we wouldn't for instance, pay for extensive music and gymnastics coaching. Again, I did not claim to be poor, did not ask for aid, do not want it--would rather see it go to those who need it. I stand by my statement that the fact that a kid does not get aid, does not mean he has lived a lifestyle like you imply.</p>

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<p>garland, what you say makes sense. Still, you must admit that pell grant recipients cannot live that lifestyle even if they wanted to.</p>

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<p>I absolutely agree. As I said, I spend all day counseling and teaching students who get Pell grants; most of us here on CC can have no conception of what they go through just to get to class each day.</p>

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<p>"If you'll re-read my post, I said that you shouldn't assume anything about people lifestyles from the aid they get."</p>

<p>Okay....how many times have you eaten out in the past year? Or how many times have your kids done so? How many times have you "brown-bagged" out of necessity? Do you (or the kids) visit Starbucks? How many times have you decided not to go somewhere because you didn't have gas money?</p>

<p>You see, for you, these are "lifestyle decisions". You make 'em. And I think that's great that you (or your kids) can do so. For a family on $43k (or for a student at HYP from such a family - which is NOT poor - just the median income), that's an extraordinary show of wealth.</p>

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<p>The fact is that many if not most Ivy League students come from affluent/high income/upper middle class backgrounds or have parents that are willing to make incredibly expensive investment in their children's education. Very few come from families earning near the national average income. Most come from families where the need for education was stressed.
Either way, the students have a significant advantage over most high school students in the country. That being said, the fact that they are privileged does not make them bad people, it makes them lucky people who should be grateful for the advantages and gifts they were given.</p>

<p>At least that's my opinion.</p>

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<p>Mini: We don't go to Starbucks. My H bakes bread from wheat he grinds. We grow vegetables in our back yard. My kids will wear handmedowns. We rarely eat out. i always brown bag. yadda yadda yadda.</p>

<p>Absolutely those are lifestyle decisions. Where have I argued otherwise.</p>

<p>One more time: you listed a series of assumptions about the backgrounds of kids who do not qualify for financial aid. These assumptions are not always true.</p>

<p>I did not compare my life to that of someone who makes 43,000. But my kids live a middle class life so we can afford their colleges. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't get why you're not getting that. I'm not claiming anything else but that: my kids live a middle class (NOT UMC, not poor) life so we can afford their colleges. Can I make that any plainer? Which part of that is not clear? </p>

<p>Or, let me put it this way: you've discussed how your kids have had extensive musical and gymnastics training--I could assume from this that you are rich, and that they therefore have always traveled to Europe, driven fancy cars, etc, or I could assume that you felt these things were very important to them, so you scrimped to make them possible, cutting a lot of corners to do so. on reflection, I think I'll choose the second option--it fits better with what I know about you. But if I didn't know anything about you, would I be justified in making the first assumption--that your kids are rich and spoiled? On reflection, I also think not. The older I get, the more I realize how meaningless it is to make assumptions about people I do not know.</p>