Class of 2009 Profile

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>jq:</p>

<p>First, 406 out of 1220 who accepted their appointments had prior college experience. That value is 33 %. Of the 406, only 229 came from NAPS, and 80 from prep schools (both foundation sponsored, and private). </p>

<p>Second, there is no data to indicate the number of spots awarded to those with prior college experience, who declined the appointment. We can only speculate on this number. These students also begin the process in early fall, and can change their mind just as easily come springtime as anyone else. It is impossible to determine the percentage of the 1503 who were offered appointments who had prior college experience (of any type). Thus your statement that 25% of those offered appointments had prior college experience is speculative, at best.</p>

<p>Third, approximately 33 % of the class of 2009 (those who accepted their appointment) is composed of people who had prior college experience. 406/1220.</p>

<p>Fourth, you seem to assume that all students who had prior college attended NAPS. This is false.</p>

<p>Fifth, those attending NAPS who did not like the military, had two choices; drop out, or finish the year so that some credits might transfer. I make no assumptions regarding their decision.</p>

<p>I would not waste time on such a trivial thing, except for your being adament that everyone but you failed both logic and statistics.
CM</p>

22

<p>And, the point of all this . . . is to make you feel better to point out "Aspen's original statement is wrong"?</p>

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<p>jq722:</p>

<p>I may be wrong, again, but I think I am down to my last 33%, no make that 25%, of my patience with your postings on this topic. </p>

<p>Let it go and move on. Don't major in minor issues. It will drive you and everyone else crazy.</p>

24

<p>Geez jq. Cool your jets some. Its ok. I'll bet you are a whiz at probs & stats though! But why pick on those kids that have completed NAPS and have gone on to other things? They did the best they knew how. I'd heard of one kid who did NAPS but decided to attend Harvard this year. The military lifestyle maybe didn't agree with him. I consider it very honorable to have atleast made the huge accomplishment. These important decisions of academy life are made after a year or two of painstaking thought. Are you active in a JROTC or Sea Scouts or anything of the sort? Just wondering as to any first-hand knowledge you might have of how this game is played. PS-Don't be mean to your elders. Not cool....</p>

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<p>My comments about women (I spend my working and waking hours working on women's issues) were nothing more than what we were told. My experience is that those women applying are excellent candidates and at the top of the pool. But...the reality is that it does make you stand out in a way that many of our son's can't. A women won't get in unless she has the stats but it is another way to stand out. Women joined the academy about the time I graduated and it's been a wonderful accomplishment!</p>

26

<p>Look, the reality is that us service academy appointments are quite competitive in certain jurisdictions/states, and if candidates are really committed they will either seek alternate routes to the academy or reapply if they don't get in the first time they apply. Many of us know one kid from a very competitive state who finally got an appointment to USNA this year on his third try! (I can't tell you how much I respect this young man.) It's also very competitive for women since they only make up 20 percent of the total enrollment at USNA. Plus, let's be honest, many people still feel that women don't belong at the service academies, so they are also dealing with some gender bias. It irritates me when people say things like "He's the wrong gender," because it discounts the achievements of many women. I personally know many highly qualified female candidates who successfully completed a year at NAPS before receiving their appointments to USNA. So how do you explain the fact that Shogun's daughter got LOAs to both USMA and USNA, and both she and my daughter got appointments straight out of high school in the most competitive state in the Union, plus my daughter was named principal nominee of our US Senator too, which is one of the top 7 nominations in the country? According to your anecdote, it's partially because they are female. If a young person really wants to attend a service academy and they are triple-qualified, they will find a way. My daughter was willing to accept the NROTC scholarship and reapply if she hadn't received the appointment on her first try.</p>

27

<p>I agree. And I ponder this about our academy, USMMA. WHY is it that there are only approx. 100 women at this academy in the 1,000 that go there. Only 10%. I was amazed that more do not attend. I've not researched much but from what I can find, it shows that in general, not too many woman apply there. I find it odd as they can reach the same goal of becoming a Naval Officer commisioned or reserve. In fact, they can choose any of the branches of service to go into. Is it due to the majors they offer? They are all about ships and engineering and don't offer the history or english majors. Do you think that women's interests just lie elsewhere? I just find it odd. Not that I'm trying to sell the place here but by golly, I'd like to see more women at all the academies. Not one woman from our state received an appointment but I do not know if any even applied. 13 women reported in for I-Day. By the way guys, a wee bit of cool history.... USMMA was the first Academy to appoint women!</p>

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<p>I have no idea why more women aren't applying. For me, I believe it's the whole military thing that kind of scares women, because they automatically assume that they are going to have to go to war, also many girls that I have spoken to find it not "fitting" for a girl to go into the military. Many times, women do chose the history/english majors solely because the other majors do not suit them. I have a very strong english/history background so if I am admitted into USNA, I will choose Poli. Sci. as my major. I would like to see many more women admitted into the different service Academies, but I believe that more need to apply and learn that it's not just the military that these schools offer.</p>

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<p>To reply to Wisconsinavy2010, I agree with you that more women need to apply and perhaps don't see the military as positively, career-wise as some of the guys. But, I don't think that they are necessarily scared, but conditioned that way. It amazed me at how little support my daughter received from her high school, friends and various family members during this journey. For many of the gentleman, they get pats on the back and "atta boys". But, for many of the females, they get "Why on earth would you want to do THAT?" So, until society as a whole (men and women) wake up and see that both sexes have lots to offer in most jobs, I think you'll continue to see the numbers be relatively low.</p>

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<p>Percentage of females in each of the service academies.</p>

<p>USNA 17% Female</p>

<p>USMA 15% Female</p>

<p>USAFA 17% Female</p>

<p>USMMA 14% Female</p>

<p>USCGA 29% Female
(<a href="http://www.princetonreview.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.princetonreview.com&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Now, in each of the services there are (2001):</p>

<p>Total DOD forces 14.7% Female</p>

<p>Navy 13.9% Female, Marine Corps 6% Female</p>

<p>Army 15.3% Female</p>

<p>Air Force 19% Female</p>

<p>Coast Guard 10.2% Female
(<a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004600.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004600.html&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Not being a sexist or anything, but looking at these statistics I believe the female enrollment in the service academies is perfectly fine.</p>

31

<p>The percentages at the academies are in line with the total amount of women in the armed forces as a percentage of the total. I think that percentage will climb as more options continue to be opened to qualified women. As women continue to prove themselves capable to assume those roles from which they were previously excluded, new roles will open up for them. Those ladies currently at the academies are still among the "pioneers"-- after all, it wasn't that long ago they weren't allowed in the academies at all. Female graduates from West Point are finding themselves in combat situations (some already decorated for bravery) in Iraq, despite the fact they can not "officially" serve with combat units. It shows that despite policy and culture, in war they don't get to pick the circumstances in which they find themselves, the circustances find them.</p>

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<p>I recall a high level Air Force officer stating that 25% female cadet enrollment was the target at USAFA. I believe the overall trend is to increase female enrollment at the service academies.</p>

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<p>After looking over these posts, one thing stikes me as very clear: no matter how you cut it, admission to any of the academies is highly selective and extremely competetive- at every step in the process. There are no shortcuts, just lots of hurdles with each bar raised higher and higher at every one.</p>

<p>JuniorMom: we too were told that our son would be competing in the "most competetive category" ("wrong sex, wrong ethnicity").....and as such he was encouraged to persue other schools/avenues as he went through the process; he did, however he never lost sight of the USNA. In the end he had lots of excellent choices before him. We also learned going through this process that while athletes are highly sought after, so are females and minorities....there is an active recruitment effort to get their numbers up. As for state diversity, in my opinion it is fundamental to the very nature of the academy that strives to have every area represented....every state funds it, every state's sons and daughters defend it, and it seems "absolutely american" that every state have the opportunity to send their best...no matter how they might rank against neighboring states....to the finest schools our nation can offer. Think how enlightened the net result is when kids from the heartland can discuss their perspective with those from the cities, or the mountains, or the tundras of Alaska! Where else can you find such a rich sharing of ideas than at the academies that enroll candidates from every area of the country, regardless of economic or social strata? I can't imagine a system that could be fairer in it's process. (Teddy Roosevelt said it best...see the prologue of "Absolutely American"...a "must read")Having said all of that we too questioned the fairness of it all, especially when we were told it would be "more competetive", but thinking about it now from that perspecive has helped put it in focus for us, and in the end it sounds like you have arrived at that same place. If your son really wants the USNA, then by all means encourage any desire on his part to try again.</p>

<p>USNA09MOM: you are on target in your statement that "females are highly qualified, often outpacing their male counterparts academically..." (and from what you posted, physically as well!!) There is a study that was done by the US General Accounting Office (GAO) that specifically looked at these issues (admission rates/performance stats/graduation rates, etc) between groups (females, athletes, minorities, former enlisted, preps and the lowest 30% group) across three of the academies (USNA, USMA, USAFA) that was reported in 2003 (they looked at the class of 2002)...and while it supports that females, in general, had higher academic grades both going into the admission process and throughout their stay, their rate of graduation was significantly lower compared to the other groups. It would be interesting to see why that is, although I believe higher drop-out rates contribute to this outcome. It would be of interest to repeat the study to see if these trends have changed.</p>

<p>As for the comment about the trends in varsity athletes (forget who posted it but posted as 89% in 2008 to 91% in 2009) one can look at the results of the 2002 study again to see that varsity athletes followed by prep school graduates had the highest graduation rates of those groups studied: USNA Stats:<br>
"Graduation rates (Class of 2002): Overall: (1,226): 80%
Females: (190): 71% (B)
Minorities: (221): 75%
Prep school graduates: (146): 77%
Recruited Athletes: (380): 79%
Prior Enlisted Personnel: (76): 72%
Lower 30 percent of admissions class: (368): 76% (A)"</p>

<pre><code> A: "denotes a group average or percentage with a statistically significant
(p<.05) difference greater than 5% from the overall average or
percentage"

B:"denotes a group average or percentage with a statistically
significant (p<.05) difference greater than 10% from the overall
average or percentage"
(GAO office report Sept 2003 / GAO-03-1000)
</code></pre>

<p>In the end it was the athletes and prep school grads that had the highest yield of graduates, so is it any wonder as to why these groups are highly valued? After digesting this lengthly study I am of the opinion that the academy is well versed in what it needs, how to get the best candidates possible, and how to achieve the highest yield of graduates for the taxpayers dollars. For those of you who like to crunch the numbers yourselves (there seem to be a few of you) the site is: <a href="http://www.gao.gov/atext/d031000.txt....well%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.gao.gov/atext/d031000.txt....well&lt;/a> worth the read.</p>

<p>Having gone through this ride with our son this past 18 months, with 1+4+4 years to go, it is he that provided us with the best advice: he told us not to look at the numbers, (who got in, GPAs, SATs, and ECs and... and.... and....) he would do the best HE could do regardless of the "mean" and let his record stand on its own....HE reminded US that he was competing with no one but himself....and he was determined to work as hard as he could to make himself a better candidate. He did not get caught up in the numbers, and in the process saved us from the same fate of speculation and analysis and everything else parents seem to get caught up in....and I have to tell you it make life a lot easier. He had faith in himself, and all we needed was faith in him (and I'll admitt, I did throw in some extra prayers...you never know!!)</p>

<p>As everyone knows, the academies look for the whole package....not just grades or fitness or leadership....you need it all, and you need the right interest and the right determination and the right leaderhip and the right amount of humility and a solid dose of good old-fashioned luck for the stars to be perfectly aligned, and even with all of that there are no guarentees. He told his B&G officer that he feels he is "one of the lucky few of the deserving many"....and he is, for there are certainly kids that are just as deserving, and no doubt more so.</p>

<p>As for the acceptance rates of candidates at NAPS or the other prep schools...does it really matter? These candidates are not chosen lightly for these coveted spots....the competetion is just as tough....600 kids recommended to the foundation program with 80 selected? (fpr those of you who like numbers, that equates to 13% acceptance rate) If anything, I think the kids that chose these paths---be it at NAPS, foundation, other preps or a year at college...demonstrate their determination to get a seat in the following class....kodo's to them for having the guts to try, and the guts to step away if they determine it is not for them, and kudo's to the ones that are able to see it through....they deserve every seat "reserved" for them in the next class....and being that their graduation rates are higher, one could conclude it is well worth the extra effort they put into the whole process. Again, it only reinforces for me that the admissions board knows exactly what they are doing in identifying these kids that clearly have the potential to succeed.</p>

<p>So I guess what I am trying to say is to encourage your "candidate" to do the best they can- present the best package they are capable of ...and the rest is out of your control. Trying to figure it all out is a fruitless waste of time and energy.....as for me, I took our son's advice and spent my time trying to learn what the academy (and Navy) could offer him.....I already knew what he could bring to the table and trusted that the Admissions board would recognize it....and certainly this site has answered many of our questions when we had them or when we faced one of the many hurdles along the way....
so just a few (perhaps way too many) thoughts written in the wee hours 'cause its just too hot to sleep....thank goodness Bancroft has A/C....and lets all hope USMA and USMMA follow suit! (write to your congressman...all the kids deserve a cool night's rest!)
Best of luck to all-</p>

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<p>navy 2010:
Havent followed all your thread is your son/daughter at NAPS/prep?</p>

<p>My son, after much waiting was accepted to USMA civil prep in June... in the end we realize how fortunate he is to have the opportunity... following initial dissapointment of not bieing a direct admit</p>

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<p>NAVY2010
You have said it very well. [maybe w/ the exception of the assertion that recruited athletes graduate at higher rate; it seems there are so many variables that any given study is difficult to extrapolate to the larger population. That's okay, let's just agree that 70-80% of all plebes will graduate.] I always chuckle at the "what are my chances" posts.</p>

<p>First, virtually nobody on this site is qualified to answer the question.</p>

<p>Second, presumably, the person asking the question has done "the best that they can do." They have no more; to assert that one could have done better in any particular pursuit is admit that you have slacked off in your pursuit. That isn't the kind of person wanted by the acadamies either. </p>

<p>Third, the admissions process is what it is. The acadamies are directed to have national, ethnic, gender, academic, athletic, and who knows what else type of diversity. Its a tall order that reflects the demands of modern society. If an applicant has some quality that fits a need, then I say exploit the hell out of it. Present your best foot forward. Its a lesson these young people learn early on and its no different than when you apply for a job. Applicants, regardless of what they are applying for, do not live in a vacuum; they will be evaluated against others to determine whether they have the qualities that fill the needs of the institution. So, if you are a minority female that happens to be a star athlete, guess what? You are at the top of the list.
That's life, get used to it.</p>

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<p>Bill0510: just to clarify....the assertions are not mine, just what was concluded (and reported) by the GAO study that looked at one class (2002)...you are right that one cannot extrapolate to other classes or other groups....which is why it would interesting if the study were repeated to see if the same findings still hold true or if there have been significant gains/losses in subsequent years....but that is well beyond the capacity of this forum certainly! And your point is well taken, that "nobody on this site is qualified to answer the question" (I assume you are relating to "what are my chances")...which is exactly my point....why waste time and energy trying to analyze the meaning behind the numbers reported....like our son said, better to put all the energy into self-improvement...."out of the mouth of babes!" ....I know for him, he took and retook the SATS up until the very end to see if he could squeeze out another 10 points....not because of the "scores reported" in the class profile, but because he had worked hard and "wanted to do his best"....reminds me of something Thoreau wrote:</p>

<p>"The true finish is the work of time, and the use to which a thing is put. The elements are still polishing the pyramids." </p>

<p>And, as always, your third point is right on the money....much like being in the right place at the right time with the right set of skills and the right attitude and the right stuff when they need that particular thing.....what I equate to the "luck" factor. This in no way diminishes the hard work these candidates have put into the process....or that so many of them are qualified and capable....like our son told us (and his B&G) he considers himself to be one of the "lucky ones"....and yes, he will be evaluated against others...(as it has always been...competeting in a myriad of academic and athletic events)...and we watched him over the YEARS push to improve....but while he kept an eye on the "field", his philosophy was not to "beat this kid" or "beat that kid's time) but rather "beat my own time-each and every time"....it was a philosophy that earned him the respect of his teammates in each of his sports I am proud to say. Thus far he has landed well beyond what he thought were his limits, which only makes him set the mark that much higher...for that is the next mark he sets out to "beat." he has come to realize that it is a constant process that is never-ending....there again, I think that will only serve to help him tackle what lies ahead. As a parent, we can only expose him to the opportunites available to him, and support his decision as to where he wants his life to go....i stress HIS decision...and that is what parents have to keep vigilance over. They are the ones that will have to survive their choice, not us....so the right motivation and the right reasons have to be there as well.</p>

<p>15mbw: our son received a direct appt to West Point, an alternative appt to USMMA and an offer of sponsorship to the foundation program at USNA, which is what he opted to do. He was fortunate to receive nominations for each...2 congressional and 1 senatorial....this in a very competetive district...he also got into the 2 "civilian" schools he applied to , one of which was "highly selective" which rivaled the rates reported by the academies. It was his decision to make, and for a few weeks he really struggled with what to do- but the USNA offered the major he wanted, as well as an opportunity to work on the water, and that was the determining factor. As for not getting a direct appt at Navy, the dissapointment, while there, was pretty short-lived when he realized he could have "another summer off" (he is working 2 jobs!) and that he could still play his sport at the foundation school...that was important to him...and I also think he realized that the extra year might make a difference with the adademic side ... I will say that once he made his decision he has not looked back....although I know, from his own words, that he has nothing but the highest respect for the USMA and while he no doubt will be caught up in "Go Navy" the "beat army" might come out a tad softer!...but that is my opinion, it remains to be seen for he is a fierce competetor on the field!</p>

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<p>Thanks for the update, ... My son never did anything specifically to 'get a certain score' ... we had encouraged him through out life/high school.. do what interests you (do the very best you can- as your son suggests) and the schools that value that will admit you. We also prayed that the right thign would happen eith erespected engineering school/west point . The prep spot and his interest in it came --out of the blue--mostly becasue we weren't paying attention to what the MALO was saying. </p>

<p>Just to second the do you best and see see how it goes.</p>

<p>I think personal achievement/etc can get you close at the academies... but the final cut to a large degree comes down to demographics/locaiton/specific needs . And the military will be that way, the mission comes first--the mission of the service academies is not to bring the highest scoring candidates, but to bring in candidates (as a group) that will best lead the services</p>

<p>Another way to put it --and then I will stop
If you are a candidate- It is not about what you want, but what the academy needs</p>

<p>best of luck to all.........</p>

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<p>Navy2010,
The 2002 GAO report is dated. I believe the current graduation rate for females at USNA is around 76 percent and probably improving every year until it matches the overall graduation rate--maybe by 2010! The data only gives a snapshot. For example, many prior enlisted and recruited athletes also spend a year at NAPS, so which group are they in? We can all agree that these graduation rates are significantly higher than many other colleges, public and private. Oh, and most of the female mids are varsity athletes, team captains, All League, State champs too. Recently my daughter was featured in Sports Illustrated along with the other sport team captains at her high school. Sports Illustrated ranked her school #1 for its exemplary sports program out of 38,000 public and private high schools nationwide. During the same week her high school was also on Newsweek's Top 100 High Schools list for its academic program. So the female mids/cadets are also heavily involved in sports, clubs, academics, community service, etc.
Looks like you have a pragmatic outlook on the process. I agree with you, the Admissions Board knows what they're doing.</p>

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<p>Navy2010,
I'm so glad to hear that your son chose the foundation offer--USNA wants him and he will be there next year. In fact, he will be taking the Oath in approximately 11 months. Plebe Summer is challenging for everyone, but I definitely think candidates coming from NAPS, the foundation schools, and prior enlisted make a smoother transion than those entering without any military training. It's probably easier on the families too. I was stunned the first time I saw a photo of my daughter in camouflage shooting an M16!</p>

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<p>In the right place at the right time. . . </p>

<p>Two companies started about the same time in a central Texas city. One was named after its founder, the other was named after the city in which it was founded. At the time, I would suggest that each of the founders was equally talented. One company you've heard of and may even be a partial owner of; the other company rests in history's dustbin.</p>

<p>Easily half of life is being in the right place, at the right time, with the right qualities. Sometimes you meet the right people that can help you reach the dreams that you have; other times, its a struggle just to sell the next computer.</p>

<p>Why did Dell make it and Austin Computer did not? Why did Home Depot make it and Builder's Square did not? Why is George Bush president and others are not? A large part of life is just being born in the right place [America] at the right time [30 years ago, many of our children would not have even been considered for appointment] with the right parents [no further comment needed]. </p>

<p>Encourage your children to take advantage of whatever advantages they may have!</p>