<p>mellowjello -- Thanks! I know, I was worried about financial aid during ED (and still am) but one of the college reps paid a visit (Ms. Shen), I talked to her about it and she told me that if the package was not enough to cover the cost, the school would either renegotiate the offer or release me from the binding commitment. So yeah... I just hope everything goes right because my family can pay no more that 10K. A student from our school (Thailand) who graduated two years ago went to Williams and she recieved a really nice package. Ahhh! I really want to go to Williams (saves me from having to fill up the rest of the applications as well :P).</p>
<p>Ephman:</p>
<p>I believe that both Mini and I have commented on Williams reputation as a drinking school because, as alumni, we are concerned with that reputation.</p>
<p>As far as large state schools, I have no doubt that some have very high binge drinking rates. However, I don't compare Williams to large state universities and would argue that it would be a sad day when Williams is compared to those schools.</p>
<p>As far as Amherst drinking, I honestly don't know. It was not on my daughter's list so I haven't researched the issue as I have for both Williams and Swarthmore.</p>
<p>I do agree with you (and stated above) that every school will have "x" percentage of students who do not drink at all, "y" percentage of students who drink in moderation and responsibly, and "z" percentage of students who binge drink. Williams has all three categories. Swarthmore has all three categories. However, I have NO doubt at all the percentage in each category and the overall "alcohol culture" at Williams and Swarthmore is very, very different.</p>
<p>Some examples:</p>
<p>-- Swarthmore has not been forced to close its student health center due to alcohol liability concerns</p>
<p>-- Swathmore's Board of Managers has not met to discuss the "alcohol problem" on campus. </p>
<p>-- Swathmore's newspaper has not run a multi-part report on the "alcohol problem" and, in fact, references to alcohol related news items at Swat occur, on average, about once a year.</p>
<p>-- Swarthmore's Head of Health Services told me that one student was sent to the hospital for alcohol poisoning last year. Williams does not release their numbers, but the Williams Record articles indicate that the number of students sent to hospital last year was alarming.</p>
<p>-- Swarthmore does not have a Committee on Alchohol, nor have they hired consultants in response to a perceived problem on campus.</p>
<p>-- Neither my daughter, nor any other Swat freshman I have heard from, has described the freshman drinking in his or her hallway to be "crazy".</p>
<p>Do I think that the majority of Williams students behave like out of control Animal House binge drinkers? No. Do I think Williams has a growing reputation as a hard drinking party school? Yes. Do I think there is some truth behind that perception? Yes. Do I think there is a "campus culture" direction at Williams that does not fit the direction I would like to see at my alma mater? Absolutely. The aspect of campus culture that I find particularly puzzling is the conscious decision on the part of the school's administration to invest heavy resources towards becoming an athletic powerhouse. That one leaves me scratching my head.</p>
<p>Would these campus culture issues have prevented my daughter from attending Williams? No. Did they play a major role in her preference for Swarthmore? Yes.</p>
<p>My biggest disappointment is my perception that the Williams administration has no clue about these campus culture issues and the underlying causes. For example, I have read nothing indicating that they understand the role of extreme segregation of the freshman class in the drinking problems. I have seen subtle clues that they do understand the correleation between certain high-profile sports and drinking, but no indication that they would be willing to reduce their commitment to being an athletic powerhouse. I also see an "us versus them" quality to the student/administration dialog on the alcohol problem, something that is quite striking in comparison to the student/administration interaction in governing Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, I didn't understand one part of your post above: </p>
<p>"For example, I have read nothing indicating that they understand the role of extreme segregation of the freshman class in the drinking problems."</p>
<p>I think the freshman entry system today is the same as it was back in my day at Williams. How does this contribute to "drinking problems"?</p>
<p>A few quick comments. It did seem to me, visiting Swarthmore, that drinking was less prevalent there than at Williams -- but of all the schools I visited, Swarthmore was the least appealing. Why? Because of an overwhelming emphasis on academics vs. the rest of a well-rounded college experience. I think Williams should not try to emulate Swarthmore, just as Swarthmore should not try to emulate Williams -- they are different schools for different types of prospective students. </p>
<p>What I think is misleading about many of your posts is that you make it seem as if Williams is out of the mainstream of other Nescac / Ivy schools in terms of drinking on campus. There is simply no evidence that that is the case, and, anecdotally, I've heard that drinking is more prevalent at many top schools (UPenn, Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Middlebury, Colgate) than it is at Williams. I'd say that Williams falls somewhere in the middle among elite institutions, and is much better in terms of substance abuse than the average college or university in the northeast. </p>
<p>Now, does that mean I'm not concerned about drinking at Williams? Of course I am. One alcohol poisoning is one too many. But I think that what is responsible for recent problems in campus is actually TOO restrictive an atmosphere regarding drinking on campus -- and the report of the consultants essentially concluded as much. When the school and town try to stop undergrad drinking, it tends to drive it underground, making it much more dangerous. The fact that Williams is focusing on improving this aspect of campus life is to be applauded -- I'm sure many schools with similar or worse drinking situations would rather ignore the problem, but Williams is a very proactive rather than a reactive (such as reacting to an alcohol related death) and is trying to improve campus life. I'm not saying the situation is perfect, but I am saying that for someone who wants to be at a very social campus where drinking is not prevalant on weekends, they should not discount Williams in favor of Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Princeton, Stanford or pretty much any of its competitors. Some of your and Mini's posts seem to suggest that a student who is not a big drinker should cross Williams off the list. By that logic, they should also cross off pretty much any NESCAC school and most of the Ivy League. Many of my friends barely, if ever, drank, and none were high-profile athletes, and we all had an amazing experience at the school. </p>
<p>One final point -- Williams has not devoted excessive resources to athletics on campus. IN fact, Williams spends far LESS per student-athlete on athletics than pretty much any of its NESCAC peers (per a recent Sports Illustrated blurb) and the athletic facilities at Williams have probably received less attention over the last decade than any other facilities on campus -- compare our facilities, for instance, to Middlebury. Moreover, Williams has cut back on recruited athletes and also raised standards for those athletes over the last five years. I think the fact that Williams can achieve so much excellence in so many arenas: number one in academics and on the rise with more faculty and tutorials, amazing in the arts and, once again, on the rise with tremendous new facilities for the arts, tops in undergrad math and scientific research, and tops in athletics among DIV III schools is what makes it such an amazing, vibrant place. If you want someplace more purely intellectual, you can go to a UChicago or a Swarthmore. Someplace totally arts focused, Vassar or Bard. Someplace athletics obsessed, Notre Dame. But Williams, along with possibley, is uniquely situated to provide an atmophere that breeds tremendous success in almost every undergraduate endeavor, while also being a place where kids can have a healthy and fun social experience as undergrads. I don't think we as Williams alums should want to turn it into Swarthmore. Which is not say we shouldn't always strive to improve the institution. But the situation is not nearly so dire, nor so unusual among peer institutions, as your posts suggest.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>I think the freshman entry system today is the same as it was back in my day at Williams. How does this contribute to "drinking problems"?</p> </blockquote>
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<p>More alcohol poisoinings at Williams occur among freshmen than all of the other classes combined.</p>
<p>IMO, the lack of effective role modeling for incoming students is a primary contributor to the alcohol abuse problems at Williams.</p>
<p>Williams is, by no means, the only school that segregates freshmen. However, the nature of Williams entry system and freshmen dining halls makes for particularly extreme segregation.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>One final point -- Williams has not devoted excessive resources to athletics on campus. </p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I don't know how you can say that. Nearly 40% of male Williams students participate on a varsity sports team. I believe that this is probably among the highest percentage at any school in the country. Even at Davidson, which is much smaller and competes in NCAA Division I, that figure is only 26%.</p>
<p>At major college sports powerhouses, like U. of Miami or Duke, you won't find percentages even approaching that degree of campus domination. Whether recruited or not, the role of athletics in the admissions process at Williams is immense. Those percentages certainly support the contention among many alumni that Williams has indeed turned into a "jock" school.</p>
<p>I just think you have to visit. Both my d. and I were shocked at what we saw, and what we experienced (and I very much wanted her to like it, and she was much recruited). The sheer volume of mid-week drinking was breathtaking, and far, far more than we saw at comparable colleges. The lack of economic diversity was also extremely apparent. </p>
<p>The Dept. of Ed. core survey (that Williams fills out and reports on alcohol/drug use on campus) found far, far more health center overnights from alcohol poisoning at Williams than at comparable schools. And the fact that they had to close the health center for overnights because no physician was willing to risk the liability any longer was very telling. When the first death happens from alcohol poisoning, the JA who provides the liquor will be charged with a felony, and serve 2 to 10.</p>
<p>But it is still true that 20% of the campus doesn't drink, and 30-40% do so in moderation. The academics are wonderful, the setting breathtaking, the faculty amazing, the language departments still poor, the art history department still terrific. Just visit and make sure you feel comfortable. (my d. didn't)</p>
<p>If Williams can have 40 percent of its male students participate in varsity sports, have an average SAT I over 1400, and be number one in the U.S. News rankings for LACs, I think that is called success. It has been my experience that people who are scholars and athletes are more successful in life than are eggheads who are grinds. If there were some way to rank leadership of college graduates, I suspect Williams would rank very high on that list.</p>
<p>I'd like to hear details about what was so "crazy" (InterestedDad) or "shocking" (Mini). Seriously. You guys were at Williams a long time ago. You both don't like athletes, and you don't like drinking, and you're glad your daughters are at Swarthmore instead of Williams. And at least one of you (ID, I think) said you would have preferred Swarthmore for yourself, in retrospect. You are both very hard on your Alma Mater, but it really does seem that you'd have preferred to have attended your daughters' school. You should lighten up. The "reputation" for drinking I've seen has to do with William's willingness to try to address what is a typical college situation. What, exactly, is your experience that makes you think Williams is such a cult of alcoholic death?</p>
<p>As a very recent graduate of Williams, I feel compelled to chime in. First, I should mention that I am a non-drinker and had an amazing academic and social experience at Williams.</p>
<p>Although I have been following these threads for many months, I have finally decided to step in and contest the statements made by Mini and Interestedad.</p>
<p>I'd first like to ask Mini where she is getting the drinking statistics provided in her previous post. I have never seen the 20/40/40 statistic anywhere. Did you just make these numbers up to illustrate a plausible situation? Second, I would like tell Mini that I am enormous advocate of home-schooling, but I feel that it may shelter young adults from the behavior of main-stream adolescents. This behavior often includes drinking. In my experience, students may occasionally enjoy a beer or some liquor at Williams on school nights, but students are rarely trashed during the middle of the week. Perhaps your daughter was so stunned by the drinking during the week because she had never been around young people who drink? You claim that the drinking at Williams was much more pronounced than other comparable schools that your daughter visited at accepted students days. The only other school I remember you saying that your daughter looked at was Smith. I know you mentioned that she was waitlisted at Scripps. Are Smith and Williams really comparable institutions? Do they share many applicants? I doubt it </p>
<p>Have you all read the latest edition of the Record? (<a href="http://www.williamsrecord.com/wr%5B/url%5D">www.williamsrecord.com/wr</a>) It discusses alcohol at Williams, and I think Williams should be applauded for tackling the issue. Please note that, thus far, not one Williams freshman has been taken to the hospital.</p>
<p>I grew up in a small Pennsylvania town near Swarthmore, and I concur that Swarthnore and Williams are enormously different institutions. Interestedad- it is important to remember that virtually no other institution is like Swarthmore. Full of intense intellectuals, Swarthmore is known for attracting true students who may not always embrace the "party mentality" that exists in some form at comparable institutions. Similarly, Swarthmore students are known for being far more uni-dimensional than students at comparable institutions.</p>
<p>Since you were at Williams, the academic credentials of incoming students have risen considerably. It is far more racially diverse than it was back in the stone ages when you were students (Kidding). Finally, believe it or not, many athletes at Williams are actually academically talented. Interestedad insinuates that the emphasis placed on athletics at Williams compromises the quality of the academics. If Williams chose to drop its football and hockey team, the SATs of incoming students would probabaly increase and the student body would certainly be more Swarthmore-like. But why do we need to have more than Swarthmore? Why should Williams become Swarthmore? They cater to different types of students, and both offer equally excellent educational opportunities. In fact, Williams scores a higher academic reputation among provosts, presidents, and admissions deans at liberal arts colleges than Swarthmore (U.S. News and World Report). </p>
<p>Interestedad- some varsity athletes at Williams ( including yours truly) managed to score over 1500 on the SAT despite the fact that we happen to be first generation college students, are valedictorians of our classes, and have chosen to attend Williams primarily because it allows us to pursue athletic excellence while having access to some of the best professors and resources in the world. If Williams did not have a strong athletics program, I would not have attended. Williams provides a niche for athletes who want the best educational opportunities available.</p>
<p>Mini and Interestedad always dwell on the negatives of Williams, and rarely point out its many strengths. Interestedad- you claimed that your daughter's friend describes drinking at Williams as "crazy", but you rarely mention how much she likes Williams despite this craziness. I am sure she discussed something other than crazy drinking with your daughter. Why don't you elaborate on what your daughter's friend likes about Williams?</p>
<p>If both of you really think that Williams has become a hard-core party, sports school, you really need to explore the variety of institutions that exist in this country. In terms of partying, even some of the Ivies make the Williams social scene look like a kindergarten birthday party.</p>
<p>To all h.s. seniors- apply to Williams and visit. If you attend, I will personally guarantee your satisfaction. : )</p>
<p>Not to be nosy, but how do you ( Interestedad and Mini) find so much time to post on these forums? The length and frequency of your posts are astounding.</p>
<p>Two things...
1. freshmen dining halls? umm, every dining hall (the four of them, the new SU will be up in two years) is very much open to every student on campus.
2. The JA thing. I think that it's a great way to set up freshmen life. Most of the frosh dorms aren't your typical "horizontally" arranged halls, and almost half of the frosh class gets singles. If it weren't for the entry system and the bonding it promotes, I think the vertical entry system+the predominance of singles would lead to more drinking.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Since you were at Williams, the academic credentials of incoming students have risen considerably. </p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>That is simply not true. The median SATs and acceptance rates at top-shelf LACs when I applied in 1970 were essentially identical to today's stats, correcting for the re-centering of the SAT scores. The acceptance rates did increase dramatically between 1975 and 1985 following the end of the baby-boom. The acceptance rates have been declining again in recent years with the baby-boom echo.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Swarthmore is known for attracting true students who may not always embrace the "party mentality" that exists in some form at comparable institutions.</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Exactly. That's what Mini and I have been trying to point out -- that Williams, for whatever reason, attracts an unusually high percentage of students who embrace the "party mentality" with a gusto. I'm not saying that this is good or bad...only that prospective students should take it into account when choosing a college. Not all schools do have as high a percentage of students "embracing the party mentality". Just to be clear, I have no problem whatsoever with college students having a good time, including drinking. My opinion is that the drinking age should be 18 on college campuses and that prohibition-style policies are counter-productive. I do have a problem with binge drinking, alcohol poisoning, and a campus culture where "drink 'til you puke" is accepted social behavior.</p>
<p>Actually, interestedad... you are completely incorrect. I have seen data showing the SAT scores of incoming freshman at Williams for the past 30 years (It is not currently on the internet). When accounting for re-centering of SATs, the verbal scores at Williams have remained constant. However, the math scores have increased from roughly a 650 in the mid-70s to 705 currently. Keep in mind that re-centering had very little impact on the math section of the SAT.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>And at least one of you (ID, I think) said you would have preferred Swarthmore for yourself, in retrospect. </p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I did say that. However, my reasons have nothing to do with the current campus culture of drinking and athletics, since neither of those were defining characteristics of Williams when I was there. My reasons have more to do with location and diversity (as it existed at the two schools in the 1970s).</p>
<p>Don't think I'm against Williams. In my household, I single-handedly convinced my daughter to consider Williams and make a second visit to give it a fair shake after she had totally refused to apply after having visited the first time in late January. I took me over a year of effort to convince her.</p>
<p>I remember reading in a previous post that you would prefer that Williams be known for athletics rather than academics. Can't it be known for both? </p>
<p>You have most certainly insinuated that athletes detract from the overall academic atmosphere of the school. You may not have said this explicitly, but your constantly refer to Williams as a "jock" school. "Jock" conjures up an image of a lazy, uber-masculine meathead who throws underwear at band members (Swarthmore students?). The term "jock" is synonymous with stupidity whether you realize it or not, and quite frankly its not a very polite term.</p>
<p>See the latest issue of the Williams Record for things that would probably fall under the category of "crazy" when it comes to the drinking culture.</p>
<p>Hereare a few excerpts from the article on the alcohol consultants and accompanying editorial:</p>
<hr>
<p>Youre doing a good job at protecting students from harm while having an environment in which some students drink a lot, [often] in ways that you ought to be very concerned about, Horowitz said On the other hand, youre not doing very well from the point of view of presenting alternatives to drinking and countering the perception of the predominance of the drinking culture. </p>
<p>Horowitz called the drinking culture hegemonic, explaining that those students who do drink tend to dominate the social scene.</p>
<hr>
<p>The mythology is that this is a safe place to drink and that we are controlled about our alcohol, and although we party a lot here we do it responsibly, he said. The extent to which [non-administrative] members of the community buy into the Williams mythology was really quite staggering. </p>
<hr>
<p>Also discussed at length was the concept of students enabling alcohol abuse by other students through their lack of action against it. Sokolow spoke of students unwillingness to confront other students about alcohol problems, saying that Williams students had the highest tolerance for taking care of other drunk students that he had seen anywhere. </p>
<p>Sokolow said that after talking to members of Buildings and Grounds, many of the effects of student drinking came to the fore, many things that if students knew about it, they would be upset about it. Sokolow pointed to incidents like cleaning up buckets of vomit and dealing with property destruction. </p>
<hr>
<p>At the [College Council] meeting, Ilunga Kalala 05, CC co-president, shared with Council incidents custodians encountered the previous weekend, including eight incidences of vomit around campus and feces smeared in the Field House. Expecting members of the College staff to regularly clean-up situations like this is unacceptable and embarassing, particularly given the ideals of service and community to which Williams students are usually held. In meetings of the Task Force, Bea Miles, manager of custodial services, has repeatedly emphasized the secondhand effects of alcohol that custodians must deal with regularly. For a campus that prides itself on having one of the best and brightest student bodies in the nation, this is disgracefully mindless behavior.</p>
<p>I've read all the Record's articles on campus drinking in detail. I'm still waiting to hear about the specifics of your daughter's "crazy" drinking experience. I also wonder if, visiting in late January, she might have been there during Winter Study. If so, whatever so shocked her would have been atypical.</p>
<p>I would also agree with Mikey that ID sounds as if he thinks Williams' active pursuit of scholar athletes demeans the place. My daughter fits his description of the 1500+valedictorian 3-sport varsity athlete who is too health/fitness conscious to overindulge. The list of students receiving scholar-athlete commendations is long and impressive, and includes even (gasp) football players.</p>
<p>How can Interesteddad seriously argue that athletics compromises Williams compared to its peer group? There are people who are top 1% SAT students who happen to be accomplished athletes as well. Where should they go to college? One way to lower the '40% of males' are athletes ratio is to drop sports ala Swarthmore. A small college offering many intercollegiate teams will always always be a statistical anomaly if you look only at this percentage. For example, is Princeton less desirable than Harvard or Yale because it offers approximately as many intercollegiate sports with about a third less students? While all schools have unique characteristics, I certainly don't think that compromises the school's educational experience. Virtually all elite school have a high ratio of intercollegiate athletes to total student population. If you want a low one, go to a large state school where only 2% of the student body is on an intercollegiate team. LACs also have incredibly high ratios of orchestra members to total student body. What's next crack down on musicians? Finally, read Bowen's Reclaim the Game. Sports have raised significant questions at many elite schools (especially the 'helmet sports') but they certainly are not unique to Williams.</p>