@typiCAmom I think the quote says “if you don’t have the money, that means you haven’t tried enough.” Some people get a debilitating illness and are crushed by medical bills, some people have a special needs child who they spend money on and some people lose their job through changes in the economy and take time to retool. These people don’t have the money and they are trying “hard enough.”
I assumed the post was sarcasm.
@gettingschooled, I agree there are always exceptions to the rule, just like there are those who get their money by never trying (i.e. inheriting), but in most cases there is a pretty strong correlation between financial security and labor put into obtaining it. I took the statement as directed more at students than parents - even if your parents don’t have the money, you can succeed in America by working hard yourself.
Special circumstances usually do get special consideration at the financial aid office, for medical bills or special need siblings
I actually think an attitude adjustment makes a difference. If you think State U will be wonderful, it will. If you think only Duke or Hopkins or Williams will do, then anything else is a let down. Most of us sent our kids to the public schools in our area even though the Country Day School down the street had much nicer facilities, teachers with PhDs and many special opportunities for foreign travel on spring break. Most of our kids played on the rec soccer teams and swam at the local pools even though the elite team that cost thousands of dollars had an Olympian as a coach. Our kids took music lessons from Mrs. Brown, the high school teacher, and not lessons from the symphony first chair. We lived on a budget and our kids were fine. Now suddenly they need the best, the most expensive.
Mine are very happy at a State U and a smaller private school. They choose to be happy.
Really? Because teachers, nurses, factory workers, etc are some of the hardest working people I’ve ever met and yet they often barely break into middle income.
Tell that to people whose jobs have been shipped overseas and they can’t get training for other jobs or to the people who haven’t had a salary increase in a decade plus and can’t do a danged thing about it because other orgs aren’t hiring.
No. “Effort” doesn’t translate into income in the real world USA. Sorry.
@suz100…I also have my oldest daughter at UND. I have felt that our need was met and the NPC was within a few hundred of our costs. Daughter chose UND over a number of quality schools.
Schools for our youngest daughter that don’t meet full need have left us with the possibility of paying full EFC with no reduction for having 2 in college at the same time. We fully expected to pay half our EFC based on what we were told at multiple meetings plus the UND EFC…
I wanted the bargain… I’m finding the only bargains available for a second young adult entering college are full tuition merit scholarships or schools that meet full need. The LAC’s have no reason to offer the reduction of EFC when they know you can take out loans to breach the gap.
Daughter had to realize this past week, the schools she frowned on the week before are still in the running due to recent athletic award possibilities. She also may speak to UND coaches on her recent athletic times and possible late consideration for signings in upcoming weeks.
@romanigypsyeyes, let’s not start class warfare here. In CA, teachers get generous benefits, particularly retirement benefits, to the extent that if you add salary plus retirement, it may be more than an engineer gets in 40 years. My friend is a nurse, and her salary is not so low, either. Not as high as a doctor, but then compare the level of education/ effort. Factory workers weren’t pre-destined to become factory workers like their counterparts in India, those who worked hard in school could go to college and get better-paying careers. Even those who lost their jobs can still go to community colleges and start anew at almost any age. Yes, some have special circumstances like a sick parent or child, but the beauty of America is that where there is a will, there is a way. I am always saddened to see so many take this country for granted and instead of appreciating the opportunities it gives, choose to focus on income inequality that is inevitable in a capitalist society.
@typiCAmom, what circles do you run in?
I’ve seen more than exceptions where income doesn’t correlate with effort. Bad luck happens to people. Layoffs. Businesses failing. Divorces (quite a financial disaster in many cases), family illnesses, etc.
And sure, people who live within commutable distance of a CC could go there (and get more in debt to do so). What about those people who are not or who’s CC’s aren’t exactly good (CA is not the whole US)? Are you willing to provide lodging to those folks so that they may partake in the fine cheap CA CC system?
I think the one thing that does stick for me is what the NPC does spit out. The NPC seems to think that 28% of our income can go to college. If we actually did have anything in the way of real assets then I suspect the % would be even higher. I cannot fathom having that kind of disposable income, nor can I fathom being able to save that kind of money up over the 18 years of the child’s life…given that certainly salaries were not what they are now for many of the early years. For those of you that have that kind of disposable income, you are lucky. In many cases it is due to hard work. In other cases though it is luck. Some of the “bad” events simply didn’t happen to you. In most cases it is a fortunate combination of the two.
I am greatly offended by the remarks that folks didn’t work hard enough, the recession hit many hard and it certainly wasn’t due to “lack of effort”. Medical issues, deaths, divorce, housing markets crash, all kinds of fun things happen and it is offensive (and elitist) to assume that people didn’t “try” and offensive to those who chose lower paying career paths or were unable to to go college themselves. Many do plan and try very very hard and life happens. Regrouping can only get you so far and it takes time to recover losses and bounce back from setbacks. Timing is not always on your side. To say that people who did not to go college did not work in hard in high school is ridiculous. Gross generalizations really really bother me. I am not going to go into details on my own sob story, but I have an amazing amount of will, have worked incredibly hard and have a good paying job. I have absolutely nowhere remotely close to the funds available that the NPC seems to think I should have. The reasons why are my own but certainly are not due to a lack of work ethic, desire, or understanding of what would be ideal, nor was it due to frittering away money on frivolous items. My parents found themselves in a similar situation, unlike my children, I was able to put myself though our state flagship with a combination of jobs, scholarships and loans, that is not an option for most kids these days on their own, the dollars are simply too high.
None of that changes my position on what I am willing to pay for, nor of the validity of taking hard looks at money and real opportunities now and having those conversations with your kid before they get their heart broken but the will/way argument will only get you so far. I agree that it can get your kid to college if you are resourceful. Can just having that will and drive get them anywhere you and they would like them to be able to go? For most, no.
@PurpleTitan, I live in a “bubble” of people who all started with absolutely nothing when they came to US 20-25 years ago. Many have gone through divorces, practically all through layoffs, some had to change careers in their 40’s, a few had health issues (or kids’ health issues) as serious as cancer, but almost everyone is doing fine financially. We worked hard, we’ve been responsible with out savings, and when rainy day came, we weren’t washed away. Health issues covered through insurance and savings, divorce done through arbitration instead of expensive lawyers, persistence pays off in finding a new job. In my personal very limited experience, the only failure (in our circle) was someone who opened a cafe without not just experience but mainly without the necessary work ethic. Rejecting criticism/suggestion re decorating/ renovating the place to make it more attractive, he just sat in front of the cafe all day complaining that all cashiers steal money.
Please understand, we come from very different viewpoints. In my home country, most people - teachers, doctors, engineers, were and still are quite poor, there is practically no middle class, and those who are rich are typically connected with organized crime one way or another. So the American formula “you work hard, you get rewarded” is an exception rather than a rule. Here, it is a rule with some exceptions.
No, here is NOT a rule that those who work hard get ahead. That is a myth and I could provide enough statistics on that to make your head spin but I’m honestly just not that committed to this exchange.
You do live in a bubble… please understand that. We all live in bubbles but you can’t extend your bubble to those outside of it.
I live in an area of the US that was hit HARD by the economic crash and people haven’t recovered. I am the child of an immigrant so I understand the “came here with nothing” thing, too.
I am driving this point home because I don’t want you or your D to get the idea that if you just “work hard” then everything will fall into place. That’s just not how it works. You can work your tail off and still not get into any tip top college because thousands of other students are also working their tails off. You can put in all the effort in the world and the affordable option might be the mid-tier state U.
@romanigypsyeyes, I see your point, but I also think it’s wrong to attribute success in life to - luck? After all, if you say outcomes don’t correlate with effort put in, then what’s the motivation to work hard? I tell my daughter that “everything will be all right in the end, and if it is not all right, it is not yet an end”. Her life won’t be over if she doesn’t get into top 20 despite working her tail off. She might go to public flagman, but hard work in HS will prepare her to excel in that public uni, and even her chances of getting into top grad school or getting a dream job.
Sorry, but we just can’t blame lack of wealth on personal flaws, didn’t work hard enough. Not all teachers are paid high just because someone knows some who are. Not all nurses are, either. We don’t need to pretend life is any easier than it is. Many who lost work or decided on their own to re-train, end up in lower paying positions, to keep bills paid. You can’t look at the US realities, especially since 2008, and point fingers.
OP: you mean meets full need per fafsa EFC
Lesson number one: meet full need doesn’t mean per Fafsa EFC. Did you run the colleges’ NPCs? Because that reflects a college’s own formula and tells you how they see your “need.”
We have a lot of confused parents and students right now, who didn’t know what College X would cost them.
@typiCAmom, if you’re in a metropolitan area in CA, real estate values have also gone up by a massive amount over the past 20-25 years. How many in your circle don’t own real estate? Plus, the Bay Area has been in a secular boom for a few decades now (while the Southland hasn’t done too badly either).
You do live in a bubble because in many areas in this country, there are no rising RE values to provide a financial cushion during hard times and some areas have been in a secular depression for decades now. People in those places may work just as hard as those in your circle, yet have nowhere near the wealth.
So while it’s correct to say that hard work is required to be successful, when you say that, with a few exceptions, those who work hard will do well financially, it tells me that you’re blindered and haven’t traveled around the country enough.
BTW, my parents are also immigrants who came with nothing and I have done well, but they struggled (and nobody I’ve known worked harder than my dad), and when I visit the place where I grew up, it looks in worse shape than 30 years ago.
@PurpleTitan, I hear you. Yes, we have been sheltered. But no, not everyone among our friends owns a house. Some rent and pay exorbitant fees for rent because they choose to stay in the area. Others leave to Colorado or Texas and buy houses there. Your parents came to U.S. as adults, right? My mother cleaned houses when we arrived to U.S. When she learned English well enough, she took bookkeeping classes at local city college and eventually found a white-collar higher-paying job. It wasn’t easy, it wasn’t fast, and no, she still doesn’t own her home, but she is ok and doesn’t consider herself to be poor. Please tell me why it is not an impossible path in any other part of the country.
@typiCAmom I don’t think she’s attributing life success purely to luck, inheritances not withstanding. It’s a combo. Not everything is in your control, and even if you work hard things don’t always go your way. Working hard greatly increases the chances that it will, and that you’ll be able to recover from falls.
We’re another bubble family, and I spent some time thinking about where my kids could go for free, and that because we’d worked hard and had some savings we were going to get less aid, and how annoying that was. I’m happier now that I’ve snapped out of it.
My kids are going to small private LACs, because it’s absolutely the right choice for them and because with sacrifice and some aid – they meet 100% of need so we’re still getting something – we can afford it.
When it comes down to it, it’s going to be hard, but we’re fortunate to have the choice, as so many do not.
@typiCAmom, does she have enough to afford sending her kids to a private college at full pay? Because your first post seemed to be in agreement with someone who said that if you can’t afford that, then you haven’t worked hard enough. So is it that she didn’t work hard enough, then?
@Pheebers, when you say you are “fortunate”, the connotation is still luck, not hard work…
@PurpleTitan, no, she certainly couldn’t afford to send me to Stanford at full pay or even quarter pay. But I worked hard in regular public HS and got in, and got multiple scholarships that essentially paid my 4 years here. Again, I understood the original poster’s comment to refer to students, not their parents. To me, it meant that if you put in the effort, you can reach for the starts, and if you choose to be average, don’t blame your parents not having enough money to pay for a better school. You may not get into an elite school, but if you work hard, you can still get into a good college and a have a good life. If you don’t make an effort and blame everyone but yourself, that’s another story.
As parents, it is our responsibility to help our kids with their education, but ultimately it is our kids’ responsibility to shape their own futures.
Exactly. It’s been a combo of extremely hard work and luck.
For many years I worked for a very prestigious brokerage, and there was a saying: I’d rather be lucky than smart. Everyone worked hard & did research, but at the end of the day, you hoped everything that was out of your control fell into place.
I’m a great believer in statistics and probability, and you can definitely increase your odds – what some people call luck – by working hard. You can trim all of the trees in your yard so they’re in good shape and won’t fall in a hurricane, but then an enormous branch from your neighbor’s tree can be thrown into your yard and onto your house, demolishing an entire floor. Ask me how I know… Anyway, my point is that no matter how hard you work or plan, you can’t control everything.
@typiCAmom, considering that the OP is a parent, I certainly read that post as being directed towards a parent.