@theaterwork, Penn was $50 for the required university application (which 99.9% of MT applicants are not interested in, since their priority is MT, not the school), plus a $30 fee for submitting the prescreen. I’m sure at the early stages at least, the university app is pretty much automated. So 900 x $50 makes $45,000 income for virtually no service. Plus 900 x $30 = $27,000 to cover the cost of viewing pre-screens and admitting the chosen 16 students. I don’t know what the solution is, since it is our choice to apply, but the system sure is broken. On a happier note, my kid who was rejected from Penn at pre-screen found out this afternoon that he has landed a lead role with a great professional theatre company in a major city. He’s good enough to be hired, but not good enough to be educated… the irony! Celebrating the win!
@claire74 … it’s over a year and I still won’t let myself total up the amount of money spent in application fees. And audition fees. And gas. And hotel rooms.
Every time I start to, I think of the tuition checks I write for two kids in college … and by then, I just end up drinking a lot of wine.
Congrats to your S @claire74 that’s awesome!
@theaterwork, Thanks! We are now crazily looking at the rehearsal schedule to make sure that he can still do his last high-school show, complete all his auditions, and make college visits! Lots of negotiation with school tomorrow. It’s nuts to take it on, but we’ll make it work!
Congrats @claire74 !! Great news! I know a girl, amazing talent who was only admitted to 1 small program – rejected from all top schools and this summer landed the leading role in a national tour - go figure!
Before I start writing this, I KNOW there is going to be a lot of blowback - but here goes anyway. (We went through this process last year and our daughter is currently attending an outstanding BFA MT program and is blissfully happy. We’ve been through this!)
Here’s the tip…and I am only saying this from a place of sincerity and empathy. Please, unless you KNOW that you (or your child) are/is the VERY BEST among all of all the very best MT auditioners in the country, do not waste your time and considerable application and travel cost $$$$ applying to Michigan, Carnegie Mellon (they don’t even have a prescreen!), and Penn State. As someone stated in a post prior to this, their prescreening fees and application fees are an economic boon to the university, but when their MT acceptance rate is 12 to 14 students out of 500 auditioners, who loses? Almost certainly – you or your child. There are so many great programs out there - choose diligently and wisely!
@shopforpunky- I can completely understand your viewpoint, and I do believe your recommendation comes from a good place. And it is certainly wise not to apply EXCLUSIVELY to schools where the odds are so low. Hence the need for the "balanced list. But I think “going for it” at a top tier schools is a GOOD thing - if only to find how you do compare to the national pool. We threw in CMU as our “lottery” school- and went in with our eyes wide open. One reason we went for that one (beyond the obvious quality of the program) is that they are known as a pleasant audition experience- they are nice to EVERYONE. I have known dozens of kids who have auditioned (and several who have been accepted) and have never heard anyone describe a bad experience. My D’s auditors were lovely, gracious and encouraging. She still treasures comments made there.
Application fees are a huge money maker for ALL universities- not just BFA programs. I just looked this up- last year 37,000 kids applied to Harvard- to create a class of less than 2000 (their website said they had a 5.3% acceptance rate, on a par with many BFAs) They charged each of those kids $75- so if the math in my head is right (adjusted b/c I know some people get free apps etc) they made over $2 MILLION dollars in application fees. At least with an audition process, you know they are taking the time to actually SEE your kid.
@shopforpunky … no blowback from me! I completely and totally understand where you’re coming from.
In hindsight, I could’ve knocked off a couple of schools from D’s list that were super competitive. Unfortunately though, there are a large amount of us who don’t get the intense competitiveness until you’re in the thick of it. (We knew how competitive it was - but didn’t understand that School X, which no one in the outside world really ever heard of, was the Harvard of the Musical Theatre world.)
I tend to agree that if your kid is not a true triple-threat, you may save some $$ and pass on the CMUs of the MT world.
My d did not bother to audition for CMU, Michigan, or CCM because she figured: (a) there was basically no possibility that she would be accepted, and (b) she didn’t think that any of the three would be a great fit if a miracle occurred and she did get in.
She used the CMU application money for a Master Class with Laura Benanti (which was actually less than the CMU app fee). Laura is awesome, by the way.
Loved the post @shopforpunky !!!
Totally agree with @shopforpunky , my D won’t be applying at CMU or Michigan, Penn State, Ithaca or CCM. I know you can say " they have to take someone" and I agree but my D is too mainstream and wouldn’t stand out in terms of type. Plus we can’t afford those couple pricey ones anyway. I am doing all I can to get her out of college with very little to no debt and in this day and age I think that is of upmost importance. If your child got accepted to CMU for instance you’re still going to have a hefty bill to pay & unless you can do that without debt then I wouldn’t personally do it. I’m an odds person & the odds are too wacked. Not only are the odds wacked for acceptance into the school, they are wacked in terms of employment after graduation. Just because your kid graduates from CCM etc doesn’t mean they’re getting an immediate job to pay that monster student loan payment.
My D didn’t apply to any of those schools, you listed either, @theaterwork , or to BW, even though the latter is in-state for us. It had nothing to do with odds, though, as odds were comparable at some other schools on her list. It also wasn’t about finances, as, again, other some schools on her list were comparable. It was all a matter of fit: take away the name/brand (which we literally did), and none of those schools matched what D wanted for her. People sometimes express shock that a few of these programs weren’t on her list, but D was great about really looking at each school in terms of fit for her. I was proud of her for that (and many, many other things )!
@theaterwork, Yep, visiting schools is rather like window shopping where the price tags are hidden behind the mannequins. Or shopping at Kohl’s, where everyone is given a different price, depending on what discounts they happened to receive in the mail that week. I wish there were a way for the schools to be more transparent about who is likely to get their grants, scholarships, or loans (and, to me, a loan is not any kind of financial aid–it is a high-interest anchor that will weigh your kid down for the rest of his or her life). If a place like CMU could help us figure out our chances of gaining substantial scholarship, I’ll bet they would see their number of applications sink from upwards of 2000 to less than 500. The only reason middle-income parents allow kids to apply to lottery schools is on the off-chance that significant financial help will accompany an offer. If we knew otherwise, how many of us would throw down the $160 it costs to have skin the that particular game.
Love the Kohls reference @claire74 lol my hubby worked for them for yrs…a nightmare to be sure. Anyway yes, most everyone would want their kid to be accepted to a big name MT school. Who wouldn’t? It’s that underlying thought “this will get my kid a career in the big time” whether it be Broadway or a tour or whatever. They think it’s going to up your chance of getting a job post graduation and who knows maybe it would in terms of alumni network , agents seeing where you were trained etc. I know it’s been long debated and I’ve read extensively on people in the business and their opinion. I have also seen the reality of people who have graduated from X big name school & they have gotten a great gig and then a year later are doing menial jobs again to get by. The schools not a guarantee but I can tell you the people applying always have that in the back of their mind, hence the glut of applications. Plus if you have the app fee and the time in your schedule to audition and the $ to go there then I guess there’s no harm done so before everyone goes nuts I’m not ragging on you for applying. But why wouldn’t the great program, CMU , prescreen? It doesn’t make sense to see every person. It just doesn’t, no matter all the feel goods they give out at the audition. Do they honestly want to see EVERY kid in America who thinks they can sing/act? You know , sorry to say, a lot of those kids would never get past a prescreen or are simply not good enough singers. If you’re not a great singer you don’t have a place in MT, just my opinion. It’s why it’s the main part of an audition. Again I’m sure I’ll get flack for that comment but I stick with it.
IDK, I think you want some sort of idea where you fit into the talent universe and one or two lottery school auditions are a good way to find out. (My S’s CMU audition was the turning point where the husband and I started to think maybe the S was right and he SHOULD be trying this. We had no idea up to that point whether he and we were kidding ourselves. It was also the most useful monologue feedback he got from anybody, through the whole process.)
@theaterwork, CMU has stated that they feel pre-screening ran the risk of overlooking gifted candidates, which is why they are not doing it this year. I don’t know what the answer is, as I can see both sides. On one hand, I dislike the pre-screening process as it feels as though the door is slammed shut before kids have been able to perform for the full audition panel. While I have no inside knowledge, I simply don’t believe that, when there are 1000 or more recordings to watch, more than one faculty member watches any one tape. If your kid doesn’t appeal, for whatever reasons, to that particular faculty member, you’re out. Like most parents, I’ve heard from voice teachers, directors, other parents, competition results, etc., that my kid has an amazing voice, yet he is cut at prescreen and deferred to acting at some of his top schools. At first, it made me crazy, but I’m coming to accept that if they don’t see his value, then that’s not the right school for him. On the other hand, I like that pre-screening has saved me a flight across the country and hotel stays. My ideal? An optional pre-screen, so that we can make a slightly better informed decision. Or, better still, some transparency in the selection process. Wouldn’t it be helpful if a school stated “This year, we are open to gifted performers of all types; however, we especially need actors/singers able to play Latin/African characters and this is where we will spend our scholarship money. We are also in search of strong comedic actors and strong singers who also have gymnastics training.” Wouldn’t that give applicants a clearer picture of where to apply, while still leaving the door open to sensational performers, regardless of type? Wishful thinking, I know, and probably open to all kinds of criticism/liability.
Just my personal opinion- and flame away if you disagree- but I am not a fan of prescreens. They DO improve your odds, but not as substantially as one might like, and I remember worrying with MY kid that passing would give a false sense of hope for that school. As detailed with Penn state- if they take 900 applications down to 500 via prescreens - are they “really” improving the chances? (If Indiana takes it down to 90- that seems much better) Plus you have all the possibilities for technical issues etc. Anyway- whatever CMU does (or Juilliard for that matter, they don’t prescreen either) - it must be working for them. They don’t seem to be hurting for talent or success.
I think my request yesterday got lost somewhere in the shuffle. Is there a discussion somewhere on the avg number of applicants, the number of prescreens accepted, the number of auditions and ultimate acceptance? I know this must be somewhere on the board but I have not been able to find it.
@mtmamma2020 - this thread may have some of the information you are looking for:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1733121-mt-admit-rates-number-of-applicants-2015-class-size-2014-or-2013-number-of-offers-if-known-p1.html
Thank you !! Very helpful @vvnstar !!