Class of 2023 undergrad/Class of 2021 grad: The Tours, the Auditions, the Journey

College Majors Music Major
121

@akapiratequeen We are from overseas and have never arranged a pure school visit. The way I’ve been helping my son find good fits is by letting him explore different programs in various music schools on his own during summer breaks. Though I’d love to, I’ve indeed never attended his workshop concerts.

Yes, he’s joining Eastman’s jazz program. If there was not a time clash, he would have applied to Eastman’s composition program as well!

Last year he joined the Mpulse Jazz Institute (U Michigan) and loved it. There were plenty of performance opportunities and the teachers were truly amazing!

122

@Compojazzmom , Send me your info if you’d like me to check in on him while I’m there! Happy to help if he needs anything. Re schools, U Michigan sounds great although so far, S hasn’t been that interested. Did your S love the campus? Will he apply?

123

Sent you a PM :slight_smile:

124

@akapiratequeen Hi. PM me if you questions about Ithaca. My S is a rising senior there. He’s starting the grad school audition process! He’s visiting Northwestern next week to check out their program for a MM.

125

As we search for Contemporary/Popular music programs with songwriting and recorded arts focuses, we have toured:

Berklee-LOVED it and her #1 choice right now (doing the 5 Week this summer)
Ithaca-too Classical based
Fredonia-great music school but programs didn’t really match up to my daughter’s focus
CCNY (City College NYC) -loved the college but not sure the program meets needs
NYU -Clive Davis program would be perfect but thumbs down on the tour and very costly/low merit
Humber College (Toronto) great music program with senior year dedicated to created a recording project and great price ($12K per year US) but didn’t quite have the vibe she was looking for

Others we want to check out by tour (but may have to wait until called for audition due to travel expenses)

Belmont
Columbia Chicago
Roosevelt Chicago (Chicago College of Performing Arts)
New School
CalArts
Loyola
UC Denver (going back and forth on that one)
LACM (a more affordable LA school but not sure of accreditation or reputation??)
USC (but leaning towards no due to low merit)

Any insight on above schools welcome!

126

We are probably not going to visit anywhere this summer with the possible exception of trial lessons at some local options. We may go tour Carteton College for something different (already toured St. Olaf). My kid is looking a vocal performance and is also interested in composition. He does theater as well but is not at all interested in BFA programs. Would consider a double major at the right program. He is academic too so is looking at programs set in universities/colleges. He would consider a BA with the right vocal teacher and a strong composition faculty.

We are looking at/considering/researching …

Luther College
U of MN
UW Madison
Lawrence
St. Olaf
DePaul
Frost (U Miami)
U Denver
Oberlin
Northwestern
Carnegie Mellon
Boston University
USC

He’s in a large regional theater production this summer that is running 6 weeks. And will be another one over the holidays. We have visited some schools, but may not get to further flung options until audition time. We may be able to get a couple auditions out of the way this fall applying EA if he’s on the ball enough and can squeeze them in between rehearsals/shows. Hope he can work on essay/application stuff over the summer.

I am enjoying following everyone’s adventures, I appreciate everyone sharing!

127

@AmyIzzy we visited Roosevelt Chicago and I was impressed. My kid is not interested because he wants to be in a more academic college but the performing arts programming and faculty seemed top notch and it is in such an amazing location in Chicago. The dorms overlook the skyline and lake! Fabulous place to spend a few years. Hopefully someone with more experience with these schools will weigh in.

128

Thank you so much for that info @MusakParent

That sounds awesome. Some things she says she is hoping for are:
-cool vibe in a city which embraces the arts
-diversity in population
-ensemble opportunities
-a place which will push her musically (supportive but tough professors)

-connections/opportunities to do gigs outside of school
-internship opportunities
-study abroad would be a plus

She does like the idea of a liberal arts curriculum “balance” in addition to music but with some choice and options. Guessing it’s “all music, all the time” at Roosevelt but I’m sure she realizes she won’t get everything on her wish list.

Maybe that one is worth a visit! Sounds very much up her alley.

129

@MusakParent your son sounds amazing! My daughter has done musical theatre her whole life but surprised us when she decided not to major in Musical Theatre in college like almost all her friends did or are planning to. She also would consider a minor in musical theatre with the right program but didn’t want it to be her focus. Since she is doing the Berklee 5 Week, we will have little time for tours as I would rather her focus on application/audition business in the final days of summer. Once Fall hits, it will get intense. She would like to do a few Early Action colleges too (I know Loyola is one of them) so just hoping she can get it all together by the due dates! She is average to above average academically (3.7 GPA & some AP and SUPA classes-Syracuse University classes are offered at her school-is in National Honor Society, strong in Music Theory, etc. but SAT and ACT scores very average.) She says she prefers a liberal arts college to a conservatory but definitely not looking for an intensively competitive academic college or university. She was surprised Berklee is considered a conservatory because they must take 24 credits of liberal arts. Anyway, interesting to hear your son’s focus and direction. Please keep us posted on his journey-can’t wait to find out where he (and all the others kids we are discussing) end up!

130

24 credits is a small portion of the usual 120 needed to graduate. Depending on the school that is 6-8 classes out of 30-40 total . Berklee is most definitely ia conservatory. At a liberal arts college it might be 10 music classes and 30 non- music classes

131

Yes, now that you point that out, 24 credits is quite a low percentage of total classes on a 4 year track, @compmom. I really haven’t looked at a typical conservatory vs. liberal arts sample course load by semester for various colleges. I have also heard that the liberal arts classes at Berklee aren’t very rigorous (someone called them a “joke”.) I’m guessing this applies to many conservatories. My daughter has a friend who is a senior and will study musical theatre in the Fall. He is academically brilliant, top of his class, top SAT scores, etc. He avoided conservatories but ended up on a wait list for many of his top universities because it was pretty much all based on the audition (his talent is amazing but many schools only took 7 students out of 200 who were invited to audition!) He ended up choosing Ithaca which is a great fit because they have a stellar theatre program AND challenging academics. I’d definitely say the music part is much more important to my daughter in terms of quality and rigor but she doesn’t want to completely abandon academics or have it “too easy” when it comes to liberal arts classes if that makes sense.

132

My S19 is also more academic and was drawn to Ithaca. We’ll see how things shake out!

133

AmyIzzy, the word “conservatory” gets used in a limited way quite often. I like to refer to BM programs and BA programs. There are freestanding conservatories, which seem to define “conservatories” for many people, but there are also “conservatories” at colleges and universities (Oberlin Conservatory for example) and then “schools of music” at the larger universities, all of which are BM programs. Then, of course, there are BA music programs, some general academic, some with a performance component, and some with different strands (for instance, a composition strand). So it really bears looking closely at each school’s website and asking questions at visits.

A BM, no matter where it is offered- conservatories and schools of music have the same degree usually (UCLA actually offers only a BA so there are exceptions)- is 2/3-3/4 music classes, a BA is 1/4-1/3 music classes as a general rule. Some BA’s will have distribution requirements (Brown and Amherst don’t, as examples). A BM involves lessons, practice, rehearsals, performances that are part of the program. A BA often involves lessons but performance is usually extracurricular. BM’s require auditions (and often prescreens) for admission. BA’s most often don’t, but a music resume with recording, resume and letters of recommendation, can be submitted.

For a student who mostly wants immersion in music, but also has academic interests, sometimes the best choice is a BM in a conservatory or school of music on a campus with academics (and size, location, vibe) that fits. Sometimes, for others, the best choice is a double major BA, with music and something else. Some do a major/minor. And some do a double degree, at a university or college that has both a BA and BM (Oberlin, Lawrence, Ithaca, Michigan, Bard, Eastman?Rochester, JHU/Peabody, etc.) - or a conservatory that has a double degree program with a college or university (ex. Tufts, Harvard).

You may have read David Lane’s essay “The Double Degree Dilemma” closer to the top of this music forum. It really covers all the ways to study music by using hypothetical individual students, allowing kids to read the essay and figure out which one they most resemble.

134

One thing that most people do not look at when considering liberal arts classes for BM degrees is WHAT (rather than how many) liberal arts classes are required. For example, Ithaca and Berklee give very little choice in what classes you have to take. Others, such as Oberlin, let you take any classes you want. There is a big difference between schools that will let you take all liberal arts classes in an area of interest and ones that require 2 science classes, 2 math classes, 2 history and 2 english classes. Some even require specific math, english, history and math classes.

135

Usually termed “distribution requirements” or “gen ed requirements.” Some kids need the requirements, and some know exactly what they want and the requirements are a hindrance. I do know young people who have discovered an absorbing interest unexpectedly through a required distribution requirement class. Mixed feelings!

136

Oh wow, @compmom and @PAPDAD …a lot to absorb. My head is spinning. To add to your mix, I believe the music programs at Denver (Music and Entertainment Industry Studies-MEIS) and Loyola (Popular and Commercial music major which was described as “primarily a performance degree with rigorous training in songwriting, instrumentation, music business, and recording techniques”)are BS in Music degrees! This is how Loyola categoried it:

“This degree is a Bachelor’s of Science because it falls within the Department of Film and Music Industry Studies. Even still, your daughter would be required to take one hour private lessons per week with a voice instructor. She will also need to take a couple levels of basic music theory, piano (or guitar) lessons.”

The differences in degree types are obviously important as to the college you choose as it outlines a path for classes, choices and intensity of classes. I’m not sure the degree type will matter in terms of her future goals since she wants to use her college study to build skills and connections to help her be a successful musician, recording artist and songwriter. But the BM degree seems like the most high caliber or “respected” in terms of how those in the music industry might see it? Am I correct on that?

Boy, I have so much to learn! Thanks for all your guidance and sharing your knowledge!

137

There are BFA programs too! I think carefully looking at curricula, course descriptions and faculty is the best way to go. And remember there is always grad school

138

@AmyIzzy But the BM degree seems like the most high caliber or “respected” in terms of how those in the music industry might see it? Am I correct on that?

I would change that comment to “the BM degree is the most easily recognized/understood” as opposed to most “respected”. It is also the most common degree at music schools…making it easily recognizable.

If you are coming out of a reputable music school or conservatory within a university or a stand-alone conservatory, the degree (BS, BFA, BM or BA) may not matter for acceptance into a grad school or success in professional work. However you may need some remedial work in grad school particularly for a BA…but that can happen with any degree. The respect seems to be tied more to the music institution, its reputation and alumni than the degree type (BM, BFA, BS or BA). My D has a BS and MM. The BS degree did not hinder her at all. She knew the curriculum and made adjustments to assure she got all the music classes necessary (due to AP classes that worked for her). I feel like the degree isn’t consider as much as the fact that she came out of a well-know school with successful students.

I would recommend getting the semester-by-semester curriculum guides to decide what works best for your kid. And ask where graduates go from the school…grad school and/or performance opportunities. Then you don’t need to focus solely on the degree type. You can look at the course work to decide how best to get a music education.

And for others:
I read through some of the comments kind of quickly…and did want to add one additional thought (along the like of @PAPDAD …so you can add it to an endless list of “things to consider”.

Concerning “academic rigor” for kids leaning that way…wanting to make sure there are academic challenges in college. Do be aware that any highly selective music program will have high rigor in the music classes. I guess I understood that it would be “competitive” and “challenging” at a good school but I was a bit surprised by how hard the music classes were from a purely academic standpoint…and how many papers my D had to write…and presentation…and so on… I’m not sure why I didn’t understand this. I wanted to be sure my D had a well-rounded education and wasn’t just “performing” all day long (obviously I’m not a music person)…like hanging around with her MT friends in her high school theater classes (which seemed like a lot of fun but not that much work). So I can definitely say that semester after semester of music theory and literature (with a boat load of brilliant instrumentalists…they are such show-offs) was quite a challenge. And yes…unfortunately there is musically brilliant…and it may not be your kid…but if your kid is in class with a few of them and is competitive, they will need to work REALLY hard to keep in the pack!

Again looking at the curriculum of schools/degree types to let your kid think through different scenarios of study (heavy on academics, heavy on music, heavy on both, lighter and more exploratory) is a great way to spend the summer.

139

When I say my kid is “academic”, that is just code for a bit quirky and weird. He’d fit in well in an engineering program. He loved the vibe at UChicago (probably not affordable as need only, but I think he’d love it if he could get admitted). Anything sports heavy or Greek heavy or everyone parties every night will be a hard no from him. He tested as profoundly gifted when he was younger and can struggle socially in some settings. I am someone who struggled socially with a non-fit school my freshman year of college and ended up transferring to a higher rank school (at the cost of credits and money), and I would love for him to really like his freshman year choice in all ways. That was the primary reason he was homeschooled and now dual enrolled. Both my DH and I have STEM backgrounds and are feeling like fish out of water as we start this process.

My kid went to one college (that I thought would be really great for him) and had a sample lesson. That particular teacher was condescending in tone and my kid has no time or tolerance for that. He came out complaining that the teacher was not only a jerk, but gave technically poor advice. We did that months ago and that college is still the butt of all jokes for him! He’s the critical, high maintenance, too smart for his own good type. LOL.

140

Thank you @bridgenail. It makes sense that the reputation and focus of the institution is much more important than the degree name or category. My daughter seems to be obsessed with “acceptance rate” for that reason. She thinks music schools with over 65% acceptance rate might not be seen as challenging or taken seriously in the field. I can see her point, as it ties in to your point on the reputation of the school vs. the degree title. However, we also can’t ignore the element of making connections and being your own salesperson/self-advocate in terms of getting regular gigs or establishing yourself as a serious musician. So lots of factors will set you apart from being an unemployed musician vs. a regularly employed and sought-after one. Sure, the Clive Davis program can hook you up with diamond level people but I’ve heard that Loyola and Columbia in Chicago also give students opportunities to play off campus so it’s what the student makes of the opportunity in many cases. The outgoing, go-getters will stand out (and make their own connections with top players, producers, etc.) no matter what college they attend or have on the resumé. A good college will teach them the valuable business side of things too to help in that process.

I should clarify my statement in the previous post. “I’d definitely say the music part is much more important to my daughter in terms of quality and rigor but she doesn’t want to completely abandon academics or have it “too easy” when it comes to liberal arts classes if that makes sense.”

I had just heard that liberal arts classes are very easy at Berklee vs. the super intense, difficult music classes they offer. Conservatories may not require as many liberal arts classes but that in no way makes them easy! So forgive me if I implied that. It’s quite the contrary. But in my daughter’s mind she embraces the challenge of a high level music theory class (and would happily work her butt off!) but would dread an upper level math required class. So it’s definitely a great suggestion to look at the sample course requirements of any program before signing on!