<p>I never claimed anyone else's experience would be the same. I really hope you grow up a little during your Penn years. You really need to.
I am sharing ONE viewpoint. I assure you there are others who feel the same way my son does. Many others do NOT. What is so threatening about that?</p>
<p>My son is very social and very intellectual. Penn did not meet his academic needs. That's a fact. Yes, he is soured on the place. He hates Philadelphia. So do I. If you like it, that's great! You must be a little insecure in your choice and your own experience if one person's viewpoint is that upsetting to you.</p>
<p>From a rhetorical standpoint, you are implicitly sayin that if Penn DOES meet OUR academic needs, then we simply must not be as "intellectual" as your son (a dubious proposition to say the least), which needless to say is more than a little insulting to us.</p>
<p>Not really. He picked the wrong place for what he wanted in a curriculum. It's a matter of fit. He would probably do better with a Core like Chicago or smaller classes with more individual attention like Williams. I don't mean to insult anyone. Penn is very pre-professional. That's no secret. He thought he wanted that, but didn't really know what that meant. My son went to a prep boarding school which had a lot of discussion and debate. He missed that at Penn. He had huge, boring classes with bad teachers at Penn. The one small class had a writing TA who was so bad that 6 of the 12 original students transferred out. This was HIS experience. It was not a good one. I hope yours is better. My son is very independent- has lived away from home for 5 years. He doesn't like Penn. That's his right and it's my right to share HIS experience.</p>
<p>You can find small classes at Penn 2 ways:
1. Take courses like "Scandinavian Feminist Ornithology in the 16th Century"
OR
2. Be one of the "distinguished" scholars (BFS, DS, US, JWS, FTW, etc), which is half the student population at Penn anyways because they can't attract unhooked students any other way</p>
<p>HTH</p>
<p>Good thing you knew all these things and didn't apply ED to Penn, Dionysus. Oh, wait...nevermind.</p>
<p>Taking Wharton classes and pre-reqs and complaining that it's too pre-professional is analogous to going to Hillel and complaining it's too Jewish.</p>
<p>...but I agree, Penn's not for everyone.</p>
<p>^ Good analogy. All of WC's "complaints" are really about things that are known attributes of Penn (sort of stereotypical attributes - party school, pre-professional, etc. and you can make your experience at Penn be nothing like the stereotype if you try, but all stereotypes have some grain of truth) . I'd guess that he didn't come to Penn because he wasn't aware of these stereotypes or in spite of the stereotypes - he came BECAUSE of them. If you don't want an "urban" school (with all the good and bad that implies) then why come to Philly in the first place? He shows up at a U. with the leading undergrad B-school and like the police captain in Casablanca he's shocked, shocked! to find pre-professionalism going on. Etc. But it was a case of "be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."</p>
<p>I guess the lesson to be learned is not that Penn is "the social Ivy" or that it is "urban" or "pre-professional", etc. - these are not exactly news (although again you can go to Penn and be anti-social , a classics major, etc. - you're not obligated to do every stereotypical thing - nobody forced WC to do all that partying or not to enroll in some seminar on Albanian archeology with 3 people in it). Rather, you have to know yourself well enough to know whether the "fit" you think you want is the "fit" that you really want. Some people (a lot of people actually) are mixed up at 18 and don't really know what the hell that they want. Wharton (or a program intended to lead to a Wharton transfer) may not be the best place on earth for such people - they should really be going to a school where they can "explore" more, especially if they are not the kind of people who can chart their own course against the prevailing winds. The funny thing is that Penn COULD have been that school for WC (could still be if he wasn't so soured and easily swayed by others ) if he went about it right - move to the substance free dorm, switch his major to whatever his "true love" is, etc., enroll only in classes with fewer than 20 people, etc.</p>
<p>Percy- you are an a$$hole. WildChild would rather be dead than live in a substance free dorm. He arrived home from Penn with 5 bottles of vodka in varying states of fullness. You obviously haven't followed his history through my posts if you think he is easily swayed by others. He is 20, by the way.
He was in boarding school for 5 years- the last couple of schools were in pretty remote areas. They were not big schools. He has lived by himself for a summer in the mountains of New Mexico to train for his sport. He truly thought he wanted an urban environment and a big school. He is always at the center of social events and writes about them online. He has been called the next "Tucker Max". (to my dismay) He published an article in the online Penn magazine called "Twenty Ways to Tell You Have a Drinking Problem". He has studied the more theoretical aspects of business while in prep school. He thought he wanted to be an investment banker and make lots of money. After a semester at Penn, going to outside lectures and meeting lots of kids from Wharton and other parts of Penn, he changed his mind. At the time he chose his college (athetic recruit) he didn't realize an injury would prevent him from even practicing for the entire year. He didn't realize he would have no contact with the team. He was flown by a freshman classmate (at the classmate's expense) to parties in Miami and Las Vegas. He got excellent grades, but pretty much stopped going to most of his classes since he felt they were worthless. Yes, he could have taken some better classes, but a lot of the "better" classes met when he was supposed to be at practice for his sport.<br>
He feels that Penn is dominated by fraternities and Hillel. He says Hillel is like a varsity sport at Penn. He thinks the value of Penn is greatly diminished if you do not want a Wharton degree. He does not think it comes close to being worth $45K or so.
I don't think he chose the wrong college based on what he wanted at the time. This is HIS story and HIS experience. He's smart enough to realize that his social life was out of control and interfered with what he COULD have been getting out of the academic environment. None of his teachers were particularly good (one exception).</p>
<p>So it's OK to put up post after post here (and the parents forums) bashing Philadelphia, Penn, its students, its professors, its frats, now HILLEL on the basis of your wayward son's out of control freshman experience?</p>
<p>"Penn is dominated by... Hillel".</p>
<p>Hillel is the "Jewish campus organization".</p>
<p>So "Penn is dominated by the Jewish campus organization". Even if you are Jewish, this is an anti-Semitic remark in my book. If you are Jewish, then you are self-hating Jews and have internalized non-Jewish values (love of alcohol, athletics, etc.) which put you at odds with the real Jews you will meet at Penn, Jews who are comfortable in their Jewish skin. If you aren't Jewish, then you are really sick for voicing such hatred in public. Maybe your son needs to go back to the mountains of NM or his little prep school where there are fewer of those dirty money grubbing NY Jooos around.</p>
<p>Yeah- my underaged son is the only one at Penn drinking alcohol. And I can actually do something about it!
I don't recall saying anything negative about Hillel. I happen to think (as does my son) that it is a fine organization. He pre-gamed there many a time.The fact that it is very dominating at Penn is not an aspersion.
Come back when you grow up, kids. I'm outta here.</p>
<p>"You can find small classes at Penn 2 ways:
1. Take courses like "Scandinavian Feminist Ornithology in the 16th Century"
OR
2. Be one of the "distinguished" scholars (BFS, DS, US, JWS, FTW, etc), which is half the student population at Penn anyways because they can't attract unhooked students any other way"</p>
<p>You're an idiot. I took a 19th Century American Lit class (hardly an obscure subject) 1st semester and there were only 14 or 15 people in the class. My Intro to Analysis math seminar had 24 kids. My writing seminar this semester had 13, and three of the five courses (number theory, game theory, and Shakespeare) I'm taking next semester have fewer than 30 students (and that's just the enrollment limit...there could only be 15-20 when the class actually starts).</p>
<p>Also, I'm just a rising sophomore. </p>
<p>P.S. MomofWildChild is a joke, but I don't understand Patriot's problems with her. Dude, people drink in college. Parents can't do much about that from 500 miles away.</p>
<p>I'll admit that it is strange that he'd bring those home (yet complain about Penn being too much of a party school), but my parents wouldn't care either. Though that's probably due to the fact that I'm Canadian and have been able to legally drink at home for over a year.</p>
<p>And only five bottles? Me and my two friends went through about 25 this year.</p>
<p>Even if you drank 50 wouldn't you finish one before starting the next one or combine the half-empties before coming home so you wouldn't have to pack more than necessary (unless you like to compare brands of vodka)? 5 half-empty vodka bottles is the sign not only of a drunk but of a dis-organized drunk.</p>
<p>I'll rephrase my question - WHEN YOU WERE UNDERAGE, would you have brought home 5 bottles of vodka to show your mother?</p>
<p>Percy- the fact that you are still debating this says something pretty bad about you. I hope you are not representative of your class at Penn. It really makes me wonder how you slipped through admissions. </p>
<p>I don't recall saying my son complained about the partying at Penn. He enjoyed it quite a bit. He found it distracting, however. </p>
<p>He has a Jewish girlfriend. I doubt, at 135 pounds, he will be beating up Jewish kids on Locust walk. He is hardly a dumb jock. He got into Penn ED and has done quite well. </p>
<p>As for the vodka, perhaps we are bad parents, but the reality is that college kids drink. He's 20. There's not a whole lot I can do about it. The vodka was left over from a party and somehow he wound up with it. I am not a vodka expert, but I guess you don't mix Grey Goose with Smirnoff's just to make it easier to transport.</p>
<p>Some of your points make sense Percy, but I sympathize with MOWC's points about Penn being dominated by frats and by the Jewish culture. The fact is, most of the undergraduates at Penn have a social life that revolves around their fraternity identity, their religious activities (mostly Jewish), their sport, or their awkward interactions in Mark's cafe (a.k.a. students who spend all their time in the basement of Van Pelt). Frats are huge at Penn...anyone who doubts this is blind. Secondly, the atmosphere IS very pre-professional. Whether or not everyone goes into finance, at times it SEEMS like everyone is, or at least SHOULD, if they want any chance in this life. We all know that isn't true, but many would be surprised how many harbor this narrow idea. Whether or not Wharton dominates is a matter of opinion, although in no way is it an opinion unique to this person or this thread. </p>
<p>Back to the point of the thread...most classes at Penn are big especially in the first couple of years. It is not at all impossible to find smaller ones and those involved in the JWS/BFS program are privileged to enjoy discussion based/intellectually focused classes with (from all reports) teachers who care. The opening Econs, Maths, Psychs, Polisci's, etc. are BIG and sometimes bad (particularly the calc series). They just are. And as much as the tour guides stress the importance of TA's and recitations, we all know TA's are generally bad and the recitations are usually not worth going to. I had a similar experience to MOWC's son, although I had a different attitude at the end of my first year, for I remained an optimist. I believed, and still do, that it is possible for those who have grown disillusioned with some of the prevailing aspects of life at Penn. It is possible for one to carve out a niche for oneself--selecting better and smaller classes with highly respected teachers, joining a club, living off campus, doing research, going abroad, spending time working on a hobby or a project or an idea etc. At Penn and in life, it is important to make the experience happen for yourself, to become what you want. The beauty of Penn and places like it is that nobody is forcing you to do anything and there are opportunities available to do many things. I hope my point comes across that Penn can be largely this and mostly that--and I am not not anti-frat or anti-semitic or anti-business to say it--without being wholely anything. N.B.--the opportunity is there for Penn to be whatever a student makes it.</p>
<p>Marchiando, I have a few problems with what you are saying:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>A lot of what you are saying is perception. High profile orgs. like frats, Hillel, etc. only dominate your perception if you let them - its all in your head. On a numeric basis something like 70% of Penn students do not join frats,. It only SEEMS like all social life turns on frats, but it doesn't if you don't want it to. If by "Religious activity" you mean Jewish religious activity, well 2/3 of students are not Jewish (and not all the Jews participate in Hillel or Jewish activities) so again it's not true, it's in your head. I think especially w/ regard to the Jewish students it's culture shock for a lot of people, especially if not from the NY area - they are used to Jews only as small minority if at all, so when they get to a place that is 1/3 Jewish, it SEEMS to them like it is 2/3 Jewish, but it ain't. Some people have the same feeling about Asians, but again it only SEEMS like every other person is Asian, really it's more like 20 or 25%. Ditto Wharton - how can a school of 2000 dominate an undergrad body 4x as big? Only if you let it in your head. Now I admit that all these "high profile" groups can be hard to ignore, but once you understand that they really are minorities (influential, vocal minorities, but still minorities) then you realize that they only "dominate" if you let them.</p></li>
<li><p>A lot of schools have much higher rates of frat membership - Penn is nothing compared to some others. Also because of its urban setting, there's a lot to do (especially things that don't turn around drinking, though you can do that too) in the whole big city around you - all kinds of movies, concerts, plays, clubs, restaurants, ball games, etc. , where if you are up in Podunk U. it's either the frat party or become friendly with the neighborhood sheep.</p></li>
<li><p>Especially when referring to other minority groups, e.g. Jews you really have to be careful how you phrase things - I know you aren't a racist but it's easy to come of sounding that way like MoWC did. "Gee, the Hispanics on campus really seem to dominate, playing their loud salsa music and celebrating Cinco de Mayo every week." - you don't have to say too many words wrong before it's time to call Jesse Jackson - ask Imus.</p></li>
<li><p>As for the large classes, again it's "compared to what"? Yes maybe if you went to some small lib. arts college in Maine you'd have smaller class size. I hope you knew that when you applied and picked Penn. But Penn is not much different than other big Ivies - intro classes tend to be held in big lectures at every big U. - I heard Harvard puts 700 people in one giant theater for their intro Econ course.</p></li>
<li><p>The stuff about carving out your own niche - that part - the whole last 1/2 of your last paragraph, I totally agree w. that - this goes back to what I said about "domination" being in your head and not real at all. If you really want to and have the internal strength to do it, if that's what you want you can spend 4 years at Penn and never set foot in a frat and take only classes with 15 people or less and have a major that NOBODY will ever offer you a job for, etc. You don't have to go w/ the herd.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>MoWC - I would put the Smirnoff in the GG bottle - no one can tell the difference when you mix it and that way people will think you bought the expensive stuff.</p>
<p>I know that you're son is not some kind of Nazi skinhead just because he complained about Hillel "dominating" - I was yanking your chain a little, but a lot less than Imus got his chain yanked for saying something not much worse - some things, even if you think they are true, it's best not to repeat in public, or at least that's what I was taught. If it's possible to imagine a KKK member saying the same exact words as you, then maybe you shouldn't be saying them.</p>
<p>very well said P Skivins</p>