Class sizes at Princeton

<p>Hello,</p>

<p>I'm a UK student currently in the process of applying to a few US colleges.</p>

<p>I have a questions about class sizes and contact time. My main concentration interests are Economics, Politics and Philosophy (I'm appplying for PPE in the UK) and I'm concerned that, particularly for Econ, I'll only be in large classes/lectures all of the time, with no chance of tutorials.</p>

<p>Wil this be the case? Or, aside from lectures are there always corresponding tutorials, regardless of subject?</p>

<p>Thank you very much.</p>

<p>The class sizes at Princeton are amazing. I really think that’s one of the best things about the school. In big econ or pol lectures, you might have 200 kids, but your precept (small group, mandatory, meets once a week) will have 7-15. You get special help from your preceptor (usually a grad student, but not really like a TA…?) and it’s a small environment that particularly in philosophy/pol classes really facilitates discussion. So, in short, don’t worry! Class size is great. One of mine had 4 students, including me.</p>

<p>Graphix, looking over Princeton’s course offerings should answer your question.</p>

<p>[Course</a> Offerings « Office of the Registrar](<a href=“http://registrar.princeton.edu/course-offerings/]Course”>Course Offerings | Office of the Registrar)</p>

<p>0-300 Undergraduates
400 Upper-level undergraduates and grad students
500 Primarily grad students</p>

<p>There’s nothing like the Oxbridge tutorial system anywhere in the US; however, even in large classes, there’ll be small subsections led by a TA (and occasionally a professor), so it’s not all bad. Also, large lectures are practically unheard of outside introductory classes; for most classes, you’ll be with a couple dozen people at most. I also applied for PPE in the UK, but ended up choosing Princeton over Merton; in my mind, the ability to take a variety of classes that augment your interests is preferable to receiving a better but more narrow education in a few of them.</p>

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<p>Thanks Begoner for this.</p>

<p>This is what I thought. When you say Merton, I’m assuming you mean Merton college, Oxford?! This was my favourite college for a long time but now I’ve decided to apply to Univ…</p>

<p>So you prefer the US education? Are you originally from the US?</p>

<p>Yeah, I’m from the US (not originally, but I’ve lived here most of my life). I slightly prefer the flexibility of an American education to the rigor of an English one (I’d like to dabble in math and psychology a bit), but it was basically a toss-up for me. If I had a choice between paying domestic tuition rates at Oxford and full cost at Princeton, though, I would have chosen Oxford without a doubt. The only edge that American universities really have over English ones is that they can hire the most world-renowned professors, since they have an obscene amount of money to spend; for example, Princeton’s endowment comes out to around $2,000,000 per student while Oxford’s is a comparatively paltry $300,000. Oh, and you won’t kill yourself writing 50 billion essays each year in the US.</p>

<p>If you get financial aid from US universities, the only one that should really give you pause is Princeton; for undergraduates studying something PPE-ish, it beats its closest competitors hands-down (although Yale and UChicago are both very good, too). I didn’t even bother applying to other US schools after getting into Oxford.</p>

<p>I was hesitating between Univ., Merton, and Balliol, but I really didn’t know anything about them besides their Norrington Table standing, so I went with Merton. But at virtually any Oxford college, the accommodation will be ten times better than at any US university – the rooms are incredibly spacious compared to those in the US.</p>

<p>Also, if you’re planning to attend graduate school in the US, having obtained your B.A. here would help. An admissions representative is bound to look at a diploma from Oxford and think, “Is this even a real diploma? What on earth does first-class honours mean? Wait a second, they even misspelled ‘honors’! This has to be a forgery – reject that guy.” And even if the reaction isn’t that extreme, having a GPA is considered much better than a degree classification, since it shows that you’ve worked hard throughout college rather than scoring in the top 25% of the class on one group of final exams (it’s a system I don’t particularly like, but that’s how it is in the US – people tend to downplay the importance of standardized assessments).</p>

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<p>Are you saying that Princeton would provide the best undergrad education? (I’m also applying to Harvard and Yale…). I’ve definitely heard that it does and it seems that way when comparing academic across the three websites…</p>

<p>Do you have roommates at Princeton? I chose Merton because of facilities and the Norrington. (I ignored all the stereotypes I’d heard about it being stuck-up, boring, unfriendly). </p>

<p>And thanks for the other advice about attending graduate school in the US. I particularly like the ‘honors’ joke! ;)</p>

<p>Thanks for your help!</p>

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I disagree with this. One of the girls I met at a graduate recruitment weekend at Brown was from Oxford, and the professors oohed and aahed over her. The other equally well-qualified candidates (Penn, Duke, UCLA, Johns Hopkins, etc.) got much less attention. Professors seem to be as captivated by the mystique of Oxford as high schoolers. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Yeah, a lot of Americans seem to go nuts over Oxford for some reason (but not for Cambridge, oddly); I guess it has to do with Harry Potter movies and whatnot. And if you have a stereotypical English accent, people here will definitely ooh and aah over you. Unfortunately, you won’t be able to awe the admissions office with your exceedingly cute pronunciation of “schedule.”</p>

<p>And, yes, Princeton provides the best undergraduate education in an arts subject (with Yale being close behind and Caltech and M.I.T. being better at the sciences).* Harvard and Yale are more internationally (and domestically) prestigious, but they focus their resources on graduate students (Princeton has twice as many undergrads as grads while the opposite is true for Yale and Harvard). Attending Harvard (and, to a lesser extent, Yale) would give you better out-of-college career prospects, but you’d get a lower-quality education.</p>

<p>And you do have roommates at Princeton, with whom you’ll probably share a very small room (I’ve seen closets in Merton bigger than the double I’ve been assigned to at Princeton). There are some singles here, too, but you aren’t likely to get one. Colleges here are very big on social engineering – they think that if you cram a bunch of culturally diverse people together in a very confined space, they’ll become more open-minded. I guess that theory isn’t without its merit, but it doesn’t always work out well (my roommate is your run-of-the-mill frat boy, for example). </p>

<p>The one good thing about accommodation at Princeton is its modernity. This is obviously a very minor consideration, but a lot of the sinks in Oxford had two separate faucets for hot and cold water. If I wanted to wash my hands, I either had to do it quickly before the hot water turned boiling, or brave freezing water. Apparently, though, nobody had the idea to combine them into one faucet for the past five centuries. You do also get wireless internet everywhere on campus and other perks like that, but it’s nice to know that the plumbing system was upgraded since the signing of the Magna Carta.</p>

<ul>
<li>According to USNWR (which is the most reputable ranking in the US), Princeton’s political science and economics programs are tied with Harvard’s as #1 and ahead of Yale’s. For philosophy, USNWR doesn’t rank the schools, but a more methodologically sound survey (based only on the strength of the faculty and without institutional bias) put Princeton’s program as third in the nation, behind only NYU and Rutgers (and fourth in the entire English-speaking world, as Oxford came in second).</li>
</ul>

<p>[Best</a> Social Sciences and Humanities Schools - Graduate Schools - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-humanities-schools]Best”>http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-humanities-schools)
[The</a> Philosophical Gourmet Report 2009 :: Overall Rankings](<a href=“http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/overall.asp]The”>http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/overall.asp)</p>

<p>Graphix, don’t believe Begoner’s nonsense about more undergraduate focus at Princeton than at its peer schools, particularly Harvard and Yale. Just because there are more graduate schools, doesn’t mean undergrads get less attention:</p>

<p>1) The law, medical and business schools at H and Y have their own faculties that teach their own students, they are seperate entities; there are sometimes opportunities for undergrads to study or conduct research in these schools, opportunities which will be relatively absent at Princeton</p>

<p>2) On an undergraduate level the overall student/faculty ratios and low and about equal for the three schools</p>

<p>3) In the arts and sciences, all three schools have departments with broadly similar faculty sizes who teach both undergraduate and graduate students. It’s not as if the faculty at Princeton ignores their grad students and their dissertations while slavishly catering to the whim of any undergrad.</p>

<p>4) Princeton competes for the same elite academic scholars as does Harvard and Yale (and probably Oxbridge, too.) Princeton faculty will be judged by the same exacting standards in decisions for promotion and tenure as scholars at H and Y, and, as a result, are every bit as obsessed with their own research outside the classroom as their peers further north.</p>

<p>5) At all 3 schools, the academic structure is similar: introductory classes in basic disciplines (Economics, Psychology, Chemistry, eg) will tend to be large and taught by a professor with weekly discussion sections (called different things at the 3 schools) probably taught by grad students. There will be many discussion sections for the class and they will probably have 10 - 20 students each. Higher level courses tend to be smaller (I have had courses as small as 3 students and a prof) and are almost always taught by a prof.</p>

<p>6) At all three schools you will have professors who will become your friends and invite you to their homes for dinner; others who barely recognize you and exude something of an indifference toward their teaching.</p>

<p>All said, you can get an excellent education in PP&E at any of these schools. Princeton is very strong in both Philosphy and Economics; Yale has started a PP&E program over the last few years; Harvard has long had a prestigious (and selective) Social Studies major which is something like PP&E.</p>

<p>If you have the means to visit, please do so. H, Y and P have different vibes and settings. Harvard’s in a great city. Yale is in a small city like Oxford and (purposefully) looks and smells a lot like Oxbridge. Princeton is probably the consummate removed “ivory tower.”</p>

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<p>I didn’t mention that because it wasn’t a consideration when I was making my decision, but you’re right: Princeton has no professional schools. If you’d like to do graduate-level research in law or business while still an undergrad, you won’t have that opportunity at Princeton. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s possible to engage in legal scholarship prior to attending law school, since it requires quite a bit of specialized knowledge. Also, I have a (possibly irrational) hatred of business school – however, if you’d like to go down the rich banker route, Princeton does have a program in finance which addresses pertinent topics.</p>

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<p>According to the Princeton Review (not affiliated with the school, by the way), the ratios are:</p>

<p>Harvard – 6.8 : 1
Yale – 6 : 1
Princeton – 5 : 1</p>

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<p>On the contrary – most teachers will devote more of their time (on a per capita basis) to graduate students. That’s why liberal arts colleges offer the most individualized attention to undergraduate students (LACs are undergrad-only schools, by the way – I don’t believe they’re well-known in the UK). Of the major research universities, though, Princeton falls closer to the LAC end of the spectrum than Yale or Harvard.</p>

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<p>That’s a big problem in the US (and maybe in the UK, too) – professors are hired for their research brilliance rather than their ability to teach. It’s the same at virtually any research university. However, you can escape this at many liberal arts colleges, where teaching ability is considered paramount.</p>

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<p>Yup.</p>

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<p>Having seen 3 of the 4 above, I can say that Oxford is a far nicer city than New Haven or Princeton. Princeton’s your typical, boring, bourgeoisie suburb while New Haven is a decaying urban area that’s has several dozen murders each year – pick your poison.</p>

<p>Wow - thanks guys!
This has been really helpful for me.</p>

<p>I really appreciate all of your time, particularly Begoner and natsherman!</p>

<p>I love Oxford city. I’ve been to New Jersey (my aunt lives there) but not Princeton…and I’ve heard about the problems in New Haven but the woman from Yale who came to talk at my school tried to convince us that the area was really improving… :S</p>

<p>I know of the LACs but I just didn’t look into them. A few of my friends are applying to some though…</p>