Reed’s position is that point (2) is applicable: “As Reed has strengthened the support available to survivors, the number of reports has increased.” Should a school be punished for doing that – as will happen if sexual assault reports are used as rankings?
http://www.reed.edu/reed_magazine/sallyportal/posts/2016/Reading-Beyond-the-Headlines.html
Thanks again for all your feedback, this really helps.
The NSF WebCASPAR site is great, I wish I knew about that months ago. It is hard to nail down the data to “classics,” but using “close enough” categories you can clearly see that Bryn Mawr and Reed do pretty well. I think we ought to give ourselves a short trip up to Reed…
@MrKamaji Yeah, you probably should. But while I think Reed is a great fit for some people, it’s not for everyone. Reed is known for intellectual rigor, but it also has a much funkier and more offbeat attitude than the other schools on your list. Some might find Reed attitudes towards the classics to be overly irreverent:
http://www.reed.edu/reed_magazine/sallyportal/posts/2012/libations-they-cried.html
http://www.reed.edu/reed_magazine/march2010/columns/apocrypha/index.html
@MrKamaji
You are the parent? Is your daughter obsessing about the decision as much as you are? Seems like you are really getting deep into the weeds of classics programs on behalf of your daughter. Is she doing the same?
Yes, I am the parent (I mentioned before I was talking about my daughter, sorry if I passed the wrong impression anywhere). She was more into it than I was, looking at schools, faculty, school museums and the opportunities there, and so on, but right now she is still getting over the heartbreak of “Ivy Day.” She really wanted to get into Brown, and make use of the research opportunities there. In her mind, right now, she has to choose between “what’s left.” Thousands of others must be going through the same thing, and she’ll snap out of it (hopefully). Part of what I’m doing is gathering all the information to be ready for when she does – and mentioning some of it. I think she still has a week or so to go; some of her friends got into all the Ivies they applied for, so going to school is not helping much.
Given what she wants to do, though, the places she has been accepted to almost couldn’t be better. From the information I got from your replies (thanks!) and the research I am doing, it is clear that (a) in the end, what matters is where you got your PhD from, and (b) the majority of Ivy League graduate students do not come from Ivy League schools. In other words, she has in front of her a set of choices that are absolutely fantastic, top-notch, and will help her be whatever she wants. From where we stand as parents, we know how wonderful these choices are, and how bright the future is. She’ll get that, and I’m here to guide the “getting” as best as I can.
Some of the information from this thread is getting to her informally - how Bryn Mawr is not an “all-girls-only” experience; how Reed is not a hippie place (@brantly, the link you sent I’ll send to her. She’ll love it!); how the research prospects are related to where she goes to; and so on. Thanks again for all the feedback so far. I assure you it has been very helpful. I hope it is helpful to others in the future too, when they are looking for the same information.
As a recent female Reed grad I can assure you Reed’s sexual assault reporting rate is a function of its relatively transparent disciplinary and administrative procedures rather than exceptional levels of sexual violence on campus. It’s a good thing.
I took many courses in the classics department in my time there and have nothing but great things to say. As a graduate student at a research university now, I look back on my time at Reed and think I was very lucky to go there. The undergraduate experience is unparalleled. And the classics professors there are really the nicest, most dedicated teachers ever.
As for the grad school prospects, Reed is the place to be if you’re sure you want to go on to a PhD program. The notion that it’s a ‘weaker’ school than the likes of BU and Fordham when it comes to academic preparation is laughable. The only question is whether your daughter is as committed to getting a PhD as you seem because that’s pretty much Reed’s biggest strength, sometimes to the exclusion of more practical career guidance. A brief search in Reed’s alumni directory (which is not publicly accessible, however) brings up all the classics majors who graduated between 2011 and 2016. People doing PhDs at Princeton, UPitt, Columbia and UChicago are among the first results to come up.
I’ve heard Bryn Mawr’s classics department is extremely good, though, and am sure Bryn Mawr grads will have similarly positive things to report.
All that said, as others have told you, any of those schools would be able to accommodate a student who wants to pursue a career in academia. None of these choices is bad. I’d personally focus on the small LACs, however.
Consider, for example, that Baylor reported low rates of sexual assault prior to the recent rape scandal.
Since the scandal, their reported numbers have soared. Does this mean that things have gotten worse at Baylor since the scandal broke? No, they’ve gotten better – before the scandal, victims were afraid to come forward, and now they are speaking out.
It may seem counterintuitive, but:
I’m sure you know this but BMC is also in consortium with Swarthmore and Penn as well as Haverford, so that will provide her with a lot of depth. It sounds like a great opportunity. I have a friend who is a well-regarded history professor, not Classics, but she did her undergrad at BMC and has nothing but good things to say about her experience.
And, shameless Bryn Mawr plug but --for a classics major, what’s not to love about a school whose patron (patroness?) is Athena, and whose school chants are in greek?
But seriously, the OP’s daughter has some great options, and I wish her well!
To me, the decision seems to be between BMC and Reed if finances are not in the picture. Both of these top liberal arts colleges seem to be very strong in the classics–much more so than a large research university could be. Reed’s classics department is top-notch; it has a core humanities program and much of the classes/distribution requirements seem to put the humanities at the center rather than as something of a supplement.
“* Reed seems somewhat weaker than the others, or at least that’s how it looks.”
I do not know where this opinion could come from; Reed does exceptionally well in grad school placement and has a great reputation in academic circles. It is regularly compared with UChicago.
AsianStudent101, Reed’s placement in graduate schools has a lot more to do with the type of student that goes there than with the quality of education. Naturally, Reed is excellent, but so are Bryn Mawr and Michigan.
“To me, the decision seems to be between BMC and Reed if finances are not in the picture. Both of these top liberal arts colleges seem to be very strong in the classics–much more so than a large research university could be.”
I don’t think that statement is accurate. It really depends on the student. Some students will thrive at a place like Reed, others at a place like Bryn Mawr, and yet others at a place like Michigan. All three should provide ample resources for students to succeed.
Hi all - we booked a trip to Reed for the Reed Admit Day on the 10th. We’ll see what it is all about. If it weren’t for some of the answers here, we would probably have not even tried. When we read blurbs on the place, the emphasis always seems to be in how “out there” it is. The environment is not strange to us: our Daughter, until High School, did not have any grades, almost no tests, and little homework. This didn’t keep her from getting fantastic, “Ivy League,” grades. The summary is: we know it can work, but also how critical the students and the teachers are. We left the first “no grades or homework” school when it was clear the next teachers were not going to cut it.
We’re booking the BMC trip for the 24th (we’ll drop by BU and Fordham too). Michigan is out, which honestly was a bit unexpected. Welcome to the adult world!
For those reading this, one of our worries is that both Reed and BMC, as far as we can gather, have a “hyper-liberal” fame. We heard from a few people that “they are tolerant of dissenting opinions, as long as they are not that dissenting.” Any feedback from people who went there would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again, the answers have been extremely helpful, and will help guide us on this rather important choice!
I agree that Michigan is an excellent school, but for OP’s specific case as a student passionate about the classics I do not imagine that Michigan would be the most supportive environment for that. Research institutions by nature are more focused on research–specifically in STEM with some supplements in other areas. I know that Michigan also has a good reputation for its English department, but when I did my own research I checked out some English students’ papers they had displayed on the website and found the quality to be lower than the papers I’ve read from my peers in high school. I go to a public high school.
MrKamaji, that is great that you are visiting! I’m going to RAD myself on the 10th. But it’s also important to note that while Reed doesn’t officially have grades, it definitely has homework and tests. It’s known for being very academically rigorous (so much so that many Reed admits consider not going because of the workload).
I would say the same about BU and Fordham that I said about Michigan.
What you’re talking about, of course, is a typical difference between LACs and universities: LACs tend to have smaller classes (especially in the survey-level courses), though that gap gets smaller when students get into their major courses (200 level and higher…). Because of that, students typically get more face-time with their professors.
A typical advantage for universities is that they offer far more majors and classes than LACs do.
How do those apply in this case?
Michigan has a top Ph.D. program in Classics, so superb faculty and research. For a highly self-motivated student who is comfortable navigating large lecture classes early on and seeking out renowned faculty to get involved in research etc., it could be a phenomenal experience. But that is not the environment for everyone. For point of comparison, my kid at Wisconsin was invited to work on an archaeology dig with a professor after freshman year, when he had taken two classes with prof, gotten As from prof (not TA) because it was Honors section, and expressed interest in the subject matter. Research universities can be great opportunities for humanities/social sciences undergrads, not just for kids interested in STEM. Again, it takes a certain type of student to thrive in that environment. One of mine does, one of mine ran screaming. OP’s student seems more comfortable with smaller environment, so no reason to force the Michigan issue.
AsianStudent101, your observation would be accurate of very popular majors, such as Economics, Political Science and Psychology. In such cases, students much choose between small classes and personalized attention from faculty at LACs and the rare opportunity of being surrounded by world authorities in their field of student teaching students a wide range of courses with unlimited resources at their disposal at large research universities.
However, in the case of less popular majors, such as Chemistry, Classics, Mathematics, Philosophy and Physics, students at large research universities have the best of both worlds; the personalized attention and small classes offered at LACs with the unlimited access to leading faculty, world class facilities and unlimited resources of a large research university.
Currently, there are approximately 40-50 Classics majors per graduating class at Michigan. The Department of Classical Studies at Michigan has 36 professors teaching 25-30 individual classes each term. There are not many LACs other than BMC that can match that.
Maybe. There are differences among these schools in curriculum, class sizes, grading policies, etc. I don’t think anyone knows for sure to what extent these differences do (or don’t) contribute to outcomes. It is reasonable to stress that different students have different needs and may respond differently to different learning environments.
Nevertheless, the differences among them in per capita PhD production rates seem to be rather large whether we normalize by institution size or by program size. Yes, one possible explanation is that, for whatever reason, Reed humanities students are more predisposed to pursue humanities PhDs, before starting college, than Michigan humanities students are. However, one study (Lemke 2006) has concluded that roughly half of graduate students don’t decide to attend grad school until their last 2 years of college; moreover, university graduates are more likely than college graduates to have made the decision to attend graduate school before college or early in college. So if these findings are reliable, it does not seem to be the case that, prior to college, LAC students in general are more predisposed to pursue advanced degrees than university students in general. In addition, Lemke’s study found that students from colleges with high PhD production rates were more likely than students from colleges with low rates to (a) make the decision to go to graduate school in their last two years of college, and (b) attribute the decision to a professor.
If higher PhD production rates are attributable at least partly to the influence of engaged professors, then this metric perhaps is a bellwether for positive student-faculty engagement in general, even among students who don’t go on to graduate school. Small classes, frequent discussions led by experienced faculty, faculty-graded writing assignments, mentored exposure to primary source materials, thesis requirements, etc., would seem to be managed more easily in small liberal arts colleges than in large research universities. But again, it may be the case that some students are more likely than others to thrive in such an environment. And of course there are advantages to a large research university, which may be over-riding in many cases.
@AsianStudent101 - small but important correction. All Reed students do receive grades and an official transcript. However, papers and tests are returned with detailed comments and the culture at the school is generally not to ask to see your grade, although any student can see his/her grade at any time simply by asking. The school does notify students automatically if a course result is below a certain level.
While I I love Thucydides and Xenophon, the job market for Classics majors is terrible. Go with the cheapest, and save the money grad school in a subject your kids might be able to find a job in.
As for Reed and PHDs in the Classics, there is no surer way to a horrible adult life than the combination of the two. The job market for Humanities Phd is terrible. Horrible, bad terrible. I would rather work in a salt mine in Syracuse than subject myself to such a fate. Good luck.