<p>hi everybody. I'm graduating this June with art history. I'm wondering which schools I should apply to for grad school. I want to go into the Classics; but these are my disadvantages: not so stellar gpa of 3.4, non-classics major BA. The advantages are: some Greek and latin classes and plan to stay two more quarters at UCLA to complete a double minor on the languages. So any ideas on which schools I have a shot at? I want to stay in California. I especially want to go to uci/ucr/ucsd joint classics department. But, I have completely no idea if i have a chance. I'm sure admission have become more competitive since i was senior high school.</p>
<p>Your language preparation seems insufficient. Why not attend a post-bac program first? UPenn, UNC, Columbia, Georgetown, UCLA, Iowa, etc. have such programs.</p>
<p>P.S. Classics is an amazing field!</p>
<p>yea…the thing is, i didn’t get accepted to the post-bac at ucla. and i have a feeling it was because i was getting b.a. from ucla. schools don’t accept their own undergrads, i heard. and the other schools that offer post-bacs are too far away…</p>
<p>If you have geographic limitations, you may wish to rethink the PhD altogether. The market in Classics is a horror, and anyone wishing to get a job teaching Classics at the university level absolutely must be willing and able to relocate anywhere.</p>
<p>^^^ Agreed 100%.</p>
<p>ever thought of doing classical/ancient philosophy inside of a philosophy dept?</p>
<p>For classics I hear when admissions department goes through applications they use proficiency in latin/greek as a big qualifier.</p>
<p>^^^ and german/french/italian as a big dealbreaker</p>
<p>i majored in art history. and took couple greek art classes and really liked them and that was the reason why i got into classics. can i describe in my personal statement that i have interests in both the greek art and literature? will they see this as a lack of loyalty to one interest? i personally don’t know exactly what program i really want to be in. in these hard times i think it’s best to go to the program that will accept me.</p>
<p>Classical archaeology doesn’t require THAT much proficiency in Latin and Greek. Classical philology yeah. I’m not sure what will happen if you express interest in both, but from my understanding, you have to choose one. Why not explore art and literature a bit more and I’m sure you’ll find a preference. I’m drawn to both too, but classical literature blows my mind.</p>
<p>This is what I learned during my application post mortem:</p>
<p>To BEGIN to be competitive you’re going to need at least 3 years of one ancient language, 2 of the other and 1 or 2 years of German or French. As others have indicated, the languages are the “first cut” - there’s exactly zero chance without 'em. To give you a data point - I had 4L/2G and 3 semesters of Italian, a 3.63 GPA, and 700/710/5.5 GRE, applied to good but not great schools and was rejected everywhere. I subsequently did Penn’s post-bac, but with the housing market being what it is, I won’t be applying again anytime soon.</p>
<p>And don’t think the Classical Archaeology requires any less proficiency - every program I looked at had the same requirements as Classics. Classical period Art History was a bit lighter the couple places I looked, but you’d be crazy not to load up - you need every advantage to get a humanities job these days.</p>
<p>Your best bet is to find someone on the ad-com for the tri-campus program, schedule a meeting, take your transcript with you, and ask point blank - do I have a shot? If the answer is no, ask what you need to do to get into the “has a shot” group. The answer may well be a post-bac (insert shameless plug for Penn’s program here), or an MA taken at a feeder school. As Professor X points out - mobility will be crucial. You simply cannot limit yourself geographically and expect to have any success unless you are a truely exceptional student. </p>
<p>As to your SOP - all the advice I got was to be highly specific so the ad-com can see how you fit with their program. But I struck out, so…</p>
<p>I looked at a couple programs and they all demand 3 yrs. in one language, 2 in the other. For me, I didn’t take any 1st year greek and latin because I did some self-study and skipped to intermediate: they will count the year for which I skipped, I suppose?</p>
<p>When I graduate, I will have 2 and 1/3 years of both Greek and Latin. To make up for the 2/3 year, I’m going to study on my own in the summer. How can I show them I accomplished more skills in the languages by self-study? I wish they had entrance exams in these languages.</p>
<p>I’m also going to minor in greek and latin when I graduate this fall. Does minors have any meaning for graduate schools?</p>
<p>Well, WilliamC. I expect nothing but for the ivy leagues to be extremely difficult to get into. But, I’m aiming for usc, uci/r/sd tri-campus prgm, cal state fullerton. So for those schools, anything to say?</p>
<p>Gil: I actually thought focusing on Pliny and Pausanias might give me chance to bring my art history skills to the field. But, these authors aren’t particularly known for literary quality.</p>
<p>Like they’ve said, classics is extremely difficult to get into so you MUST apply ot a wide range of programs around the country.</p>
<p>Do you want to be in the academia after the PhD? If so, start looking everywhere for grad school. PhD and academia REQUIRES mobility, whether you like it or not. So you must be able to leave California in order to pursue the PhD or at least the job market. Don’t rip yourself of opportunities, including attending post-bac programs, if you REALLY want the PhD.</p>
<p>If you have other obligations such as family, then please rethink the whole PhD and academia. Look at the young graduate students in your departments- chances are, many don’t have obligations or spouses that they must consider when coming here for PhD (unless they met them at the graduate school). We came straight to grad school within 2 years of receiving our BAs because THIS is all we want to do for the next 10 years.</p>
<p>Minors mean nothing except that the courses are on your transcript. Self study means nothing unless it results in a published paper or conference presentation. But… while YOU can’t talk about it in your SOP, your LOR writers can. Impress one or more with your language skills and work out a way that THEY can explain how skilled and dedicated you are.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, EVERYTHING is insanely competitive in Classics. I applied to mainly “mid-range” schools (4 “Big Ten” schools (but not Michigan) plus Cincinnati, Texas and Virginia) and got nothing. Professor X will have a more informed opinion, but even given the language minima, your 3.4 GPA may not cut it even for mid-tier schools unless you have something really compelling in your package. I don’t know enough about the California system to offer an opinion.</p>
<p>In any case, check with the ad-com of the UCLA post-bac and make sure you were spiked for the reasons you think you were. Then hit up your current profs for advice. (And apply to the Penn post-bac - I’ll buy you a cheese steak!)</p>
<p>Keep posting to let us know how you’re doing - everybody is cheering for everybody else here (even if we sound discouraging sometimes)!</p>
<p>I am at a big research university in Canada. I can tell you that they won’t even look at you if you do not have your 3.7 UGPA, and that’s for the M.A. Below that, the university does not consider you ‘worth’ funding, and the department does not take students who do not have any funding (they argue that the programme is too demanding to cumulate it with a job on the side). They also are adamant about the language prerequisites. 2 years of one, 3 of the other is the bare minimum. If the student does not meet the requirements, they will prescribe another year of undergraduate studies, centered on languages. This, of course, is not funded.</p>
<p>I do not know about the American universities, but I suspect that they are equally demanding, especially if applying to a PhD.</p>
<p>by the looks of it i don’t think i’ll get a job in southern california with a classics major. there are VERY few universities that even have a classics program. i’m considering to just continue with art history or change to english, so i can work from home at a local college. </p>
<p>but this thought was pricking me: if a school doesn’t have a classics program, can’t i still become a teacher in introductory latin with a MA? is there a high demand for latin in community colleges? it’s funny, i somehow thought there are more possibilities of landing on a teaching post for classics majors simply because so few schools have the program.</p>
<p>You have CC’s that teach Latin in CA? Cool. In the mid-west and here in PA they seem to be pretty much vocationally oriented so you’re lucky to see French and German, with maybe Japanese thrown in.</p>
<p>But I’d think that given the abundance of un-employed Classics PhDs there wouldn’t be much space for an MA. It does surprise me that there are few Classics programs at the university level out there. </p>
<p>East of the Mississippi most every SLAC and certainly all the major universities have at least an undergrad program. Unfortunately, the faculty tends to be extremely stable. Anectdotal evidence from AIA/APA conference indicates that some job openings will get literally hundreds of applications. To get a feel for the job market at the university level check out current openings here:</p>
<p>[APA</a> Positions in Classics 2008-09](<a href=“http://www.apaclassics.org/Administration/Placement/jobsall08.html]APA”>http://www.apaclassics.org/Administration/Placement/jobsall08.html)</p>
<p>Note that most of them are 1 or 2 year VAPs. Also note how many were cancelled due to budget problems. The few tenure track positions will go to people who come from high profile programs (some Ivies, Berkeley, Chicago, Michigan, etc.), have a good record of publication, fill the exact need mentioned in the listing, AND get along with the tenured faculty already in place.</p>
<p>There IS a need for high-school level Latin teachers. Ideally you’d continue for an MEd or whatever the credentialing body in your state requires. If you can, get certified in a couple of areas since Latin jobs are often part time. So, if you can do Latin, plus a modern language and can coach, you can expand your horizons enough to be pretty sure of getting a job in a reasonable location and at decent salary. </p>
<p>In a given year there are usually a 250-300 openings around the country:</p>
<p>[ACL</a> Latin and Greek Jobs](<a href=“http://spectrum.troy.edu/~acl/jobs3.htm]ACL”>http://spectrum.troy.edu/~acl/jobs3.htm)</p>
<p>There will be a bunch of new entries in the system around the middle of the summer.</p>
<p>When you’re talking to your LOR writers be sure to talk about job prospects, especially if you go over to the Art History or English side. I don’t think prospects there are any better than in Classics.</p>
<p>No, I don’t think ccc’s have latin classes. This is why I want to ask: is it possible to convince a school to teach latin? </p>
<p>I think English has a pretty good job market: almost every school in every level have English classes. It’s also not that far from Classics, as both put focus on literature. I’m sure they do pretty much the same thing of analyzing literary works. </p>
<p>These Classics phD can’t they look at other job markets besides teaching, like museums? I wonder how it is in Europe; there are probably alot of opportunities because of so many museums.</p>
<p>Elderpegasus, you really need to get more informed about the reality of the job market. WilliamC has posted some fantastic resources for you, and I suggest you take a close look. </p>
<p>English has an absolutely glutted market at present, with hundreds of Lit PhDs unable to find work. Rhet/Comp is better than Lit, but even then, there are hundreds of Rhet/Comp PhDs fighting one another for those jobs. English is absolutely NOT a “pretty good job market.”</p>
<p>Museum employees prefer experience (internships, at minimum), as well as specific degrees (or at least certificates) in museology, so it is absolutely not simple for a Classics PhD to get a museum job. In fact, such jobs are very, very hard to come by, even for folks with the proper degrees, and even then, the pay is awful.</p>
<p>Finally, the only way to “convince” a school to offer a subject that is not currently in its curriculum is to endow a chair so that the university can hire someone to fill it.</p>
<p>Elderpegasus, I think you need to decide what you want to do with your life before you decide on graduate school. To me, and I may be wrong, it seems as though you’re going to graduate school only because it seems like that’s the next level of school, not because you have any particular passion for a subject. Art history, classics, and English are all glutted academic fields, and you have to be exceptional (and lucky) to get a full-time, tenure-track position with a PhD. A master’s degree might get you an adjunct (part-time) position at a community college or university, but stringing together adjunct positions, all without benefits and decent pay, is a hard life. Before the economy crashed, it could be done. Now, however, adjuncts are being cut across the country because of the economy.</p>
<p>In any case, no academic has the luxury of reliably getting a job in a certain geographic area. Yes, it might happen, but there aren’t enough jobs for a given specialty per year to be able to choose to stay close to home.</p>
<p>Your best bet, given your possible lack of direction, is to look for employment that has nothing to do, or only tangentially to do, with art history. You have developed certain skills in college that can be applied to other jobs. You may be well-suited for advertising or grant-writing or fund-raising or art gallery acquisition. These jobs aren’t easy to get, either, but I mention them only as starting points.</p>