CMU--not performing until junior year

College Majors Musical Theater Major
1

<p>CMU's policy is to wait until Junior year to audition for productions, except for the yearly Playground Week, and there is only 1 musical per year. Has anyone known personally and/or heard first-hand what the pros and cons of this are? That's a long time to go without performing except maybe in the summers and one week of the year. But, maybe it's largely a positive aspect of the program. (D is fine with freshmen not being in shows, but is unsure about waiting until her junior year.)</p>

<p>I know this is an absolutely incredible program, so it obviously works. Just wondering how the students feel about waiting until junior year to be in a show during the school year (other than Playground week)...</p>

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<p>I’m a firm believer in you learn by doing…taking what you learn in class and applying it in some form. College is the chance to work/practice/refine their craft before they set out into the real world where they may not perform at all for quite some time. Junior year seems late to me too. But I am sure there are others out there who will disagree with me. As you have said, CMU is a well respected program and their policies seem to work. I would just ask your D if not having the opportunity to perform until Junior year is a deal breaker. For my daughter it would have been…</p>

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<p>Deal breaker for my kid. Took it off the list after our tour and meeting there this summer. The attitude was that you won’t be of a CMU caliber to perform for the public until your junior year. At least that was our takeaway. Seemed like MT was a bit of a stepchild and that acting is king. They must be doing something right, just not a fit for my daughter.</p>

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<p>Here is something I liked about it- yes you have to wait a long time - BUT they “guarantee” (don’t know how firm a policy) that you will have a lead in the two years you are performing, which I imagine they can do b/c the pool of performers is smaller. I don’t remember any of the other schools D toured saying that</p>

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<p>There is so much “performing” that goes on in a BFA program on a daily basis. It may not be on a stage in front of an audience but the work of the classes. There will be so many opportunities to create and demonstrate with fellow students in the curriculum.</p>

<p>Did CMU say that they don’t let students perform because they aren’t yet of a certain caliber, OR was it more of a philosophical approach whereby they want students to more fully break down their own barriers, integrate the techniques, become more comfortable with risk-taking, and fully move away from their “high school self” in terms of what they already know about themselves and performing? </p>

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<p>I think CMUs approach is solely about what they feel best trains and prepares their actors. It definitely is an acting first approach. But they do produce great muaical theater performers. I am surprised you felt any sort of attitude there. I must say their students, staff and leadership were some of the nicest and most down-to-earth of all the schools we met. I do get that their training approach may not be for everyone. But they do seem to produce successful, working actors.
As far as performing in college goes --there are plenty of stories on CC of kids who did not get leads in high school and college, yet have found success in their professional careers. Remember, you should be looking for the best training for you. It is a marathon - not a sprint. Some kids will be starting college with more training and experience than you - and they may get more parts and leads in college because of that. But if you work hard and take advantage of the training and connections your school provides, you can also be successful. Depending on where hou start, it may take you a little longer than some of your peers. Thats OK. Do not compare yourself to them. Just work on yourself and your craft. The roles will come in due time. It’s not how you start, it’s how you finish that matters most.</p>

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<p>S - who auditioned for, but was not accepted to CMU - is a freshman in another BFA program that generally does not audition freshman for shows until 2nd semester. A swing position opened up for this fall’s main musical and he auditioned and got the part. He is thrilled, but at the same time he’s feeling a bit overwhelmed by the time commitment. Not much time to “be a freshman”, including adjusting to his new-found responsibilities of being on is own and taking care of his own day-to-day issues. Although he worked very hard in H.S., he’s learning a new meaning of “tired”.
During sophomore year of H.S., we also came to realize that while being in performances is lots of fun and does build some skills, it does NOT hone the true underlying skills it takes to be a versatile actor/singer/dancer/musician that can be plugged into any “role” with skill and confidence. Part of that sophomore year “ah-ha” realization came with our visit to CMU. Before that, we too thought that if you are “good”, you should be allowed to audition for shows. But we/S really changed our thinking after that CMU tour. S actually refrained from auditioning for some shows during junior and senior years in order to spend more REAL practice time on the “actor toolbox”. Yes, ALL of our kids are “performers”, but what will serve them the most long-term are their skills - which only come with “10,000 hours” of work time in studios and practice rooms. And also perhaps with time “messing around” in student-run productions. Look at some of the latest up-and-comers. If you look back at their history, you’ll find lots of college student “experiments” that led to other things. I also really like CMU’s position on students learning the technical ropes and behind-the-scenes work on productions. Our “stars” can only “sparkle” if the sound, lighting, costuming, property, stage manager, scenic, music, director people are good at THEIR jobs. The performers should have a very good grounding in what that means, what it takes for them to “shine”. Perhaps that’s part of why some CMU grads seem to have long-lived careers. They have one of the oldest programs in the business. Maybe they’ve learned a thing or two about training multi-dimensional actors.</p>

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<p>What is meant by “messing around” in student runs productions? How does one explain all those people who are making a successful career who never set foot in a classroom? Each student/kid is different and needs a different program/process to reach their goals. Some are ready to jump in with both feet and begin performing as freshmen, others need more time to perfect their craft. No one way is the right way. My daughter had the option of a BA and BFA and chose the BA route to open up her schedule to perform. But her trade off was not as many intensive studio classes/schedule. Granted…she has been in school for 3 weeks…we shall see if this was the way to go. </p>

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<p>@bisouu - my understanding of CMU’s Playground Week, “D Lab” at WSU, and other student-run programs at several of the schools S toured/auditioned at (and hundreds of others, I’m sure), is that these opportunities can be “faculty-free zones”. Where students come up with their own projects - perhaps writing/creating totally original work - casting, rehearsing and producing them, with no/very little direction from faculty. Some people might see this as “messing around”, or a waste of “valuable” structured time. But if you look back historically, situations like that are where most “new” ideas come from - Monty Python, anyone? When I first heard of CMU’s Playground Week, my first thought was “and we would pay many thousands of dollars for that because why. . .?” “my kid would be here to learn from well-paid professionals”. But the more I looked into it - and if you look at some posts of parents who have tread this path before us - I saw that good theater (or any creative endeavor) ultimately comes from someone - or especially a group of someones - “messing around” and either breaking the “rules”, or perhaps not knowing what the rules were in the first place. They also learn first hand what it takes to put together a show from conception to final performance, and the synergy - or lack thereof - it takes for all parties involved. A small taste of the “real” life our kids will be thrown into when the diploma is gathering dust.</p>

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<p>Most people with successful careers who never set foot in a classroom were trained privately. It’s kind of a myth that someone was just born talented. Not performing until junior year is a deal-breaker for some kids but that’s a mistake imho. And, since CMU only takes 5 people and costs 1/4 of a million dollars most don’t get to make this choice anyway but personally I would think they know what they are doing and if being in school show is that important to you it would be a concern immediately. My kid is currently skipping performing this summer because she has been in dozens and dozens of shows and wanted to focus on classes. Maybe, it’s like that. I mean, it’s easy to say you learn by being in a show and maybe you do in the beginning but eventually you really don’t. You learn by studying and training and being in a show can be a huge distraction. Also, most people they take are not exactly beginners.</p>

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<p>as actingmt points out, there are certainly no shortage of people who want to be a part of the CMU program, and as mom4bwayboy points out, they are among the oldest conservatories, with the most sought after graduates, so they must be doing something right. There are as many ways to study acting as there are plays/shows to be a part of, but the idea that it can be done without training seems a little far fetched…</p>

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<p>I know two Broadway lead actresses who were not privately trained (at least not to the extent a college would provide) and their careers have been quite successful. Voice and dance lessons as kids (like all of our kids have done) are not what I would consider “trained”. I guess it all depends on the type of training our children received as youngsters. </p>

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<p>I would argue that voice and dance as kids is still training…at least if it is going to get you to the level that bway requires (esp dance). My D went through a mercifully brief obsession with the TV show Dance Moms a couple years ago- those kids are getting TRAINED (to be what is the question, but neither here nor there). </p>

<p>Anyway, the point of the OP is CMU’s policy, and people are welcome to approve or not as they please. As I understand it (from D’s friends who are there) at least one (maybe two, but don’t have confirmation) well known school has weekly weigh ins to assess “fitness in terms of employ-ability”. That would have taken that (those?) school (s) of my D’s list. That’s the beauty of all the programs out there- there are a million ways to go. For one of D’s best friends being able to perform as a freshman was a priority- he only applied to schools were that was an option. (and has been cast already in a show that will go up in October- he’s happy as a clam) For my D it was not, she applied to some that allow freshman participation and some that did not - it was not a factor. I agree with post above which said that while being in a show may be more fun (and a learning experience too) most of our kids have not had a shortage of shows. Focused study and classwork is what I am paying tuition to get- not another production of Les Miserables… (running family joke, she has been in it 4 times, I have heard the people sing more than I would have ever thought possible)</p>

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<p>I don’t think anyone lucky enough to get in to CMU sweats it much LOL </p>

<p>toowonderful makes really good points. Many many successful actors were never cast at all in college. My S wasn’t so much driven to be cast as a freshman but he did want to attend a place he thought his chances were better. Otterbein’s classes are smaller than most so that really helped in make his choice. Turns out he was cast in the fall musical and recently in the dance concert, so freshman year and he has back to back shows. He loves it but he is exhausted and has little to no time for anything else so as great as it may sound there is a downside. I am sure by Jr. year the downsides are fewer, they are comfortable, know their way around, have friends etc. I totally get schools that don’t cast until later. </p>

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<p>@toowonderful‌ , I sent you a pm about the schools which require weigh-ins–in case you don’t want to divulge that information here. I’d like to steer my D away from such places.</p>

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<p>@myloves - I replied. I didn’t say them here as I don’t want to stir controversy, as both are popular programs, and one is unconfirmed (I do know it was a policy in years past, I don’t know if they do it anymore) Not trying to be cryptic </p>

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<p>Personally I think the idea of weigh-ins is awful. I had a hard time swallowing the reality of the importance of looks and type in this business, but it takes all kinds of actors to create a valuable piece of work. Are some schools only looking for a narrow, idealized type? How small minded and limited.</p>

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<p>I’m probably thinking of the same two programs as toowonderful re: weigh-ins. If it’s the two I’m thinking of, it has been going on for a very long time. One program had a critique of appearance shortly after students arrived in freshman year. It’s possible that the two I’m thinking of are no longer doing this but it would surprise me if two more have begun. I have no current confirmed information and would hope that this had stopped long ago.</p>

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<p>Having worked with many applicants to BFA programs, I typically observe most say that they want to be in a program that allows freshmen to perform in productions. I can see why they say that and most have been in productions for years throughout their pre-college schooling. But now I have had a daughter go through a BFA program (NYU/Tisch) where being in shows freshman year is not permitted. And I (and she) see it differently from this end of it (and not as a high school applicant). </p>

<p>My daughter did not end up minding no shows freshman year. For one thing, she STILL performed a lot. She was in professional shows in the summers before and after freshmen year and so it is not like she went a full year without a show. Also, she was in a college a cappella group and performed a lot with them starting freshman year. In her program, they performed a lot in class for fellow students and professors. She also played piano for a student run musical that year and so was involved in that capacity. There was also required crew work freshman year. </p>

<p>She was in shows every year of college after that. When she got the lead in the MainStage musical in her junior year, I remember her commenting to us that she was so glad at that point that she was not allowed to be in shows freshman year because she saw the wisdom in it. She now felt she was far more ready to take on a significant role in a MainStage show and to apply the training she had received in her BFA program (and she did have a lot of experience before college and so it is not like she had no training, but it wasn’t college level training!). </p>

<p>At CMU, not only do they have Playground, a week of creating and performing, starting as freshmen, but their entire BFA class is small enough and since only juniors and seniors can be cast, everyone has the chance to get a significant role before they graduate and there is no such guarantees at other programs even if you can perform starting freshmen year. </p>

<p>Also, my D’s program was strict about not taking professional jobs while in college (well, unless some kids do that and take a leave and return to college)…I mean more like while attending college. For example, in my D’s freshman year, a well known Broadway director / MT composer was auditioning professionals for a new musical at my D’s studio, and he already was familiar with my daughter and a boy in her class (he had seen them perform elsewhere) and wanted to cast both of them in this professional production. The program said no, these kids could not do it and particularly not as freshmen who are not allowed to perform. My D accepted it as that is the policy, even though it was a professional opportunity. Subsequently ,the young man did leave college after freshman year and was cast in a show on Broadway and has since been successful in the movies. </p>

<p>Another thing brought up in this thread is the whole topic of student run productions. I think they are very valuable. My D was a musical director for a musical at her college that was student run and also played a lead in a student directed musical by a directing student. As well, in her senior year, she was able to write/compose a new musical and perform in it as a project. This musical went on past college in various professional capacities and led to some wonderful opportunities since then including commissions by theaters to write more musicals. It all began in college by having that opportunity. She is in a professional production that opened this week and besides performing with Tony winning actors, she also wrote all the music for this show, and I think the opportunity she had to do all that in college was a building block to where she is now with her career. Student created and run productions can be invaluable experiences. </p>

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<p>Weigh ins? Ugh. Non-starter. My obese 70 year old brother in law can dive without making a splash. (I have no idea how by the way but I swear he can). He loves gourmet food and quality cigars and otherwise will outlive us all. </p>

<p>CMU’s policy formalizes what exists in many schools informally. There are plenty of schools that restrict freshman from auditioning but open it up after that. The thing is… how many sophomores actually can compete with the juniors or seniors who not only have more training under their belts, but also have already had a couple of years to maybe be on the director’s radar and be known entities. Personally I’d not look at CMU’s policy as a reason to walk away from their program. The program is so small that at least you know by junior and senior years, you’ll do something meaningful for sure. </p>

<p>@soozievt I think students at Tisch can take professional jobs while in college if they can make it work which almost always would mean choosing to do an academic semester instead of staying in studio or taking a leave from studio as you mentioned. The bigger problem is figuring out whether or not the various pieces of the schedule puzzle can fit together because often professional work books earlier than one actually knows class, studio and school production schedules. That happened to my daughter for this fall and she had to give up two opportunities outside of school for work because of it. She consciously passed on one gig that would have meant forgoing studio and doing an academic semester but the second she would have loved to do if she could have but the start of those rehearsals were in direct conflict with studio show auditions… whose outcomes at the time unknowable. </p>