Cobly vs. St. Michael's (D-Day is coming)

Very different schools, somebody said to us.

But both are private, small, residential liberal arts colleges, each with a strong sense of community, and both relatively proximal to good skiing…

Of course, the “net” price of Colby is almost twice that of St. Mike’s after a merit grant at the latter. We think we can make either happen without taking on significant debt, although certainly not without sacrifice, especially in the case of Colby.

Yes, there are other important differences between these schools (admitted to both, our son’s academic stats fall right in the middle between the stat ranges of the two), but we are just curious about what you all, the CC community, thinks in comparing these two options.

St. M’s is full of nice kids and the Catholic aspect reinforces community service. It is a great option for the right kid. But in terms of academics and the caliber of students, there is a big difference. A student who got into both may not feel challenged at St M’s.

Rigor doesn’t always correlate with admissions difficulty, so its hard to say whether Colby is more challenging. Brown would be a good example of how selectivity and rigor aren’t closely correlated.

What you do know is that one costs half as much. St. Michael’s is certainly a very good school and could actually be a much better experience for your child. There are several similar schools in the Northeast regularly marginalized based on selectivity that turn out very successful professionals, including Fortune 500 CEO’s, Pulitzer Prize winning journalists, doctors, billionaire entrepreneurs and federal judges.

There is a similar school in New Hampshire, St. Anselm, that is known nationally for its unique political science program. St. A’s is also famous for a hard limit on A grades. It doesn’t get the time of day on this forum.

In NY, if you were to say “Manhattan College vs Columbia” most would snicker even laugh out loud. The truth is Manhattan College grads make more money than Columbia grads on average and get jobs much faster.

So, you can’t blow your family up over undergrad school.

We visited St. Mike’s and my son received a really great merit award. It is a great school.

Another thing to look into is freshmen retention rate and 4 yr graduation rates. Much higher at Colby. So if your son takes 5 yrs to graduate at St M’s and 4 at Colby, suddenly the cost differential gets quite smaller.

I dont’ think there is any comparison (my D applied to both and did an overnight at St. Michaels). If Colby is doable without excessive debt or sacrifice that would be my choice. While D liked St. Michaels she really felt as though she would not be challenged sufficiently.

If the difference is 20 - 30k a year which is certainly possible, Colby isn’t worth 80k - 120k over St. Mike’s.

With D-day now past, just wanted to report back. We attended the admitted students programs at both St. Mike’s and at Colby, and indeed they are very different schools. My son chose Colby, and we his parents are fully supportive of his choice.

Thank you for the update ! It’ll be very useful to future applicants with a similar dilemma, to know how you chose. Would you mind sharing your observations about both schools ?

@MYOS1634, I’ll try… St. Mike’s is a great school, but for us the comparison with Colby was in the end pretty stark, so it’s hard to present both schools in a balanced way.

Here are some of the things that swayed us (the parents, at least); others might value different criteria, and might make a different decision…

The academic major program that my son is interested in is a well-established stand-alone program with a long history at Colby, but it apparently is a relatively new interdisciplinary offering at St. Mike’s.

While the student-faculty ratio at St. Mike’s is pretty good, and there was evidence that the students get a fair amount of personal attention, the ratio is even better at Colby, and the relationships students build with faculty is one of their hallmarks. Working in higher education myself, I am sure that Colby is better able to attract top faculty and hold them to a higher standard for tenure and promotion (which has both good and bad aspects to it…). The opportunities for students to become engaged in research seem greater at Colby (for example, we have some familiarity with Colby’s cooperative with the Bigelow Laboratory for Ocean Science), although St. Mike’s has some good efforts in this area as well (for example, through the Vermont EPSCoR).

While they downplay the religious aspect quite a bit, St. Mike’s is still a catholic school. Colby, although originally founded by baptists, is a secular college. We are not religious at all; we viewed the exposure to religion at St. Mike’s through the lens of it being a valuable part of the overall liberal arts general education experience. The liberal arts program at Colby is very similar to that at St. Mike’s, but without the required religious component.

Both schools have a foreign language requirement. Son was accepted into Colby’s global entry semester program (in Dijon, in the Burgundy region of France) which should get him well on the way to meeting that requirement (immersion seems clearly a better way to learn another language than sitting in a classroom back home). One can certainly study abroad while at St. Mike’s, although they don’t seem to have their own institutional foreign study program like Colby’s program in Dijon. Just as a side note, the Edmundite monks who founded St. Mike’s came over to North America from the Burgundy region in France, so whichever choice he had made, son would not have been able to get away from Burgundy!

The outcomes for graduates from Colby seem much better (in our minds, at least):

  • The graduating seniors that were involved in the admitted students program at Colby all had multiple job offers already; the graduating seniors involved in the admitted students program at St. Mike’s were still seeking employment.
  • A study of the undergraduate educations of PhD recipients, showed that Colby had been the undergrad institution for thirty-eight PhD. recipients in the year 2011, while St. Mike’s had ten. The mix of fields for the PhDs who had started at Colby matched my son’s interests better than the mix of fields for the PhDs who had started at St. Mike’s
  • the Economist magazine’s study of earning power relative to expectations, limited as it is, showed that the earnings of Colby grads greatly exceeded the modeled expectations, while the earnings of St. Mike’s grads fell slightly short of what the modelling expected.
  • comparing the LinkedIn profile pages for the two schools reveals differences in the types of jobs and placements between their graduates (note that these school profiles are generated by LinkedIn, gleaning the data from the individual profile pages of LinkedIn users).

My son wants to play a particular sport that is a club team at both schools, but the team at Colby travels much further and wider for competition, and is becoming more and more competitive, while the group at St. Mike’s is apparently much more informal and seems to only compete locally (in Vermont).

The overall structure, tenor, and atmosphere of the admitted students program at Colby was much more to our taste than the program at St. Mike’s; the focus seemed to be more on the academics and student outcomes and less on student life issues (at least that was our perspective).

The president at Colby is relatively young, and full of energy and grand visions for the future of the institution. Colby is well on its way to becoming a much more prominent college on a national basis. As a much more regional institution, St. Mike’s is facing a demographic decline in the size of the prospective student population, so the college’s plan is to shrink a bit (the college I work at serves much the same market, and is facing much the same challenge…)

All-in-all, Colby was just a much better fit for our son; it was his first choice from the get-go; he had applied ED but was deferred. The only hang-ups to accepting Colby’s offer of admission right away were the first-semester abroad (a surprise; see [my other thread on that](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1874899-first-semester-abroad.htm)) and the cost differential. Colby does guarantee to meet demonstrated financial need (without loans as part of the package), but of course you have to actually be willing and able to pay what they think your EFC is… Fortunately we can make it work. Obviously we decided that, for us and our son at least, the cost differential is worth it.

Thanks for the update. Good luck to your son !

@colfac92
Great post and good way to make the decision. Good luck to your son

Good luck,I think you made the right choice.

The link to my other thread on the first-semester abroad issue ended up broken. It is here: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1874899-first-semester-abroad.html

@colfac92: thank you so much for the very complete answer! It’ll be very useful for other readers and it’s very insightful, lots of details I’ve read nowhere else.
And congratulations to your son :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

@colfac92

“St. Mike’s is facing a demographic decline in the size of the prospective student population, so the college’s plan is to shrink a bit (the college I work at serves much the same market, and is facing much the same challenge…)”

This is simply not true. The class entering 2014 was a record class of about 600 students. They needed to cut the class back a bit in 2015 do to housing constraints. Not many small schools have this luxury.

Congrats on making the final decision. Sounds like it was very well considered. Hope your S has a wonderful 4 years at Colby!

@OnTheBubble

From this past fall: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/10/21/why-two-colleges-are-allowing-themselves-shrink-rather-chase-volume

From spring 2014: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/04/09/vermont-liberal-arts-college-expecting-things-will-get-bad

Maybe they’ve changed course since these were published? (edited to add: or maybe my characterization doesn’t adequately represent their planned course of action?)

The ongoing decline in the population of high-school graduates in the northeast now into the next decade is a well-documented demographic trend – one reference from a quick search: http://www.rockinst.org/observations/lanej/2013-02-Are_Colleges_in_the_Northeast_Prepared_for_the_New_Demographic_reality.aspx

@colfac92 I read those articles and was surprised that St. Mike’s is doing so well. We visited last summer and they talked about being overwhelmed by the class of 2018 and had to slow things down for the next class due to housing limitations.

It’s probably true the Northeast has stagnated in terms of college-ready population but there are always exceptions.

A similar school, St.Bonaventure, is likely to have a 20-25% increase for the class of 2020. Siena and Scranton also had good years.

Perhaps some families are looking at more conservative options now because of behavior on some campuses and overcrowding at state schools?

@OnTheBubble, to be sure, St. Mike’s certainly does not seem to be in crisis mode, and what they are talking about seems like a very measured response to enable them to maintain their quality in the face of anticipated changes in the market place, without over-extending themselves. The college I work for maybe hasn’t been quite as forward looking and so we seem to be in a bit of a rough patch right now, which perhaps colored my view.

In average SAT, Colby 2000, St. Michaels 1700. In admissions %, Colby 18%, St. Michaels 78%. Schools will often offer financial aid to those who will be among their best students.

The differences in job and graduate school rates between the schools are probably related partly by the differences in the student levels going in. Also, Colby students probably tend to be from wealthier backgrounds. So, there is a logical fallacy in implying you will have better career chances based on the statistics. However, there is a huge difference between those schools.