<p>I also feel strongly about this issue but we are in the minority. Most parents think it's just part of college and look the other way.</p>
<p>The fact that it is illegal to drink under the age of 21 seems to be ignored by both parents and children. If the children knew that legal action would be taken it would help to stop them from participating to begin with.</p>
<p>It's sad for our children that they have to hunt for schools where alcohol abuse is not the norm.</p>
<p>Schools which we researched and/or visited where we saw relatively less drinking (there was still drinking, but really large differences from some of the others) included: Evergreen, Reed, Macalester, Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Scripps, Hampshire, Earlham, Swarthmore, and we had the impression that this was likely true at Bard and Vassar. I didn't know it would be such a large issue for my d. until she visited, and the drinking schools fell down the lists.</p>
<p>Some kids will flourish at schools where there is a lot of drinking by finding a different, and comfortable, niche. Some kids will go to such schools and become distinctly unhappy. A plurality of kids (which likely means a plurality of OUR kids) will become part of the drinking scene if they go to a heavy drinking school - and the majority of them will flourish despite it. And a portion of them will become involved in the scene, with unhappy consequences.</p>
<p>One needs to know one's own. Mine continues to be delighted with her choice, especially given what she has seen elsewhere (as part of her education, she does music programs at four other campuses, so she gets to see the differences.)</p>
<p>I don't think that college administrators are blind to the fact that a heavy drinking reputation hurts them with some segments of the applicant pool. However, it is a case of wanting to have their cake and eat it too in that some of their most desirable applicants (full-pay, high-stat, athletes, etc.) tend to fall into the heavier drinking categories. So, they would like to reduce the perception of drinking on campus while at the same time remaing attractive to the "work hard/play hard" customer base. </p>
<p>A weak "party scene" (euphemism for drinking) is perceived as a big negative for large segments of the 18-year old customer base. What is not being effectively communicated is that there are plenty of opportunities to have fun (and drink) at schools that do not have an excessive drinking culture. Kids get the idea that these schools are convents, which is hardly the case. At the same time, there is a lack of understanding about the widespread negative consequences of a heavy drinking scene.</p>
<p>Kids are always going to drink when they go off to college. I sure did, though it was reasonably moderate by todays standards. The big problems now are the frequency of drinking (Thursday is now the weekend's beginning) and the volumes consumed. A fun buzz no longer seems sufficient.</p>
<p>Who do you assume ALL kids drink when they go to college? Does that make it okay?? Will they all have sex or do drugs? Why is underaged drinking treated differently than drugs? Both are illegal.</p>
<p>I truly don't understand why adults are okay with underaged drinking. Does it make you feel better because you did it? Does it make you feel better about your own drinking as an adult??</p>
<p>Someone please explain!!</p>
<p>Carmelmom, not ALL kids drink at some point while in college but certainly the vast majority do. I don't think that it does anyone any good to have your head in the sand (and I don't mean YOU specifically when I say your) about what happens on college campuses. </p>
<p>We're on D3 at this point starting off at college. The first two went to different types of schools and D3 is at another one, again. The cultures were different, the sizes were different, the student populations were different, and yet at all three, I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of kids who drink is pretty much the same.</p>
<p>I think a large part of the problem is that the drinking age is unrealistic at age 21. Not many kids who want to drink are going to wait until their 21st birthday. The drinking age is lower in Canada, varying by province, where my D3 is and I don't see that it causes any more problems, in some cases less, than in the U.S. </p>
<p>Having much experience around college aged kids and various college campuses, I acknowledge that there is a percentage who abuse alcohol, but for many who drink, there are few instances of over-indulgence. The discussions which we have from time to time here on CC always seem to assume that if kids drink at ALL, that they drink until they're passed out. That isn't the case with all kids, maybe even for the majority who drink.</p>
<p>I honestly think that there are very few college campuses where kids do not drink. There will always be some who do, just as there will always be some who don't at every campus. To look at a college and determine that you don't want to attend, because kids drink there, is going to seriously limit your choices. There's no reason that kids can't be happy at a college even if they don't drink. I know kids who have chosen not to drink at all, and who attend colleges of varying sizes and 'cultures'. They're happy. They've found their niche and are comfortable with their decision. Does this mean that they never see or associate with kids who are drinking? Of course not, and I think this may be the crux of the matter here. If kids are going to remain in their dorm rooms rather than attend any event where there is a possibility of someone consuming alcohol, then I think they're going to be very unhappy indeed. I think it's unrealistic to plan on that type of existence.</p>
<p>Educating our kids about alcohol and its effects should always include information on how to drink responsibly as well as, how to keep themselves safe in an environment where others are drinking, transportation issues, the dangers of alcohol poisoning. My kids all have friends who don't drink at all but they're not made to feel different when they attend parties, etc. It's too bad if that's happening to some kids at some colleges but, in our experience, it doesn't happen very often.</p>
<p>From generally adult fans. Some are alums--others just fans.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There's no reason that kids can't be happy at a college even if they don't drink. I know kids who have chosen not to drink at all, and who attend colleges of varying sizes and 'cultures'. They're happy. They've found their niche and are comfortable with their decision.
[/quote]
The prevailing expectation here on cc, from my observation, is that drinking on many college campuses is such that kids will be subjected to its downsides, like it or not, participate or not. By that I mean, drunken noisy parties in the dorm, vomit in the halls all weekend, smelly vomit-laden bathrooms, perhaps intoxicated out-of-control roommates... Until here on cc, and until I read the "fictional" I Am Charlotte Simmons I never had any idea that this would be the current environment. I still don't <em>know</em> if this is actually the environment or an exaggeration. But this aspect of the issue troubles me <em>almost</em> as much as the truly worrisome issue of drinking to the point of lethal blood alcohol level.</p>
<p>In the middle ages when I was at Wellesley, this was not my reality. Now, Wellesley is always on the list of low-drinking environments; but I spent more time than I should have and, okay, many nights at Harvard. Drinking and dope-smoking certainly occurred - and often - but the "spillover" to non-participants was not a big issue.</p>
<p>What is the reality today for a non-bingeing college student?</p>
<p>I have zero tolerance for anyone drinking under age 18, except for a glass of champagne at midnight on New Year's or at a wedding of a family member. But, once you are 18, I think it should be legal to drink. </p>
<p>Prohibition didn't work for adults in the '30s. Few things helped organized crime as much. It doesn't work for "kids" between 18 and 21 either. </p>
<p>There is a study that has shown that during Prohibition--when it was illegal for anyone to drink--college kids drank just as much as they did before and after it. In more recent years, raising the drinking age to 21 where it was 18 before (e.g., New York), has been shown to have NO impact on how much college kids drink in the aggregate. </p>
<p>What does making it illegal do? What do substance-free dorms do? They divide the world into drinkers and non-drinkers. Non-drinkers will be in the minority. When they are cut off from the "regular" college party scene, other kids drink more. To a certain extent, kids tend to drink at the same rate as their peers. If drinkers and non-drinkers go to the same parties, the "social" drinkers drink less. "Social" drinkers are the majority of college kids. So, when colleges look the other way, it's often the case that kids drink more moderately and the non-drinkers and drinkers socialize together. </p>
<p>When you drive it underground, the non-drinking kids get marginalized. It becomes much harder for a non-drinker to go to a party at which liquor is served and turn it down for a coke or a seltzer. In fact, the hosts may not even OFFER anything other than beer or other booze. </p>
<p>And, instead of gulping down a lot of liquor to "pre-game" or "pre-party," I'd rather college kids have a beer or wine or even a cocktail AT A MEAL and drink their liquor spread out over several hours, balanced with water or something else in between, etc. I'd rather they drink moderately, in other words, and that they continue to do so after they do turn 21, instead of when they magic moment finally comes, keep going to parties where everyone there drinks. </p>
<p>Think about how you socialize yourself. Now, I'm sure some of you don't drink at all--for religous or other reasons--and you may not ever socialize with people who do. But, in my world, if I have a party, I make sure I've got soda and other beverages for my non-drinking friends. If they come and choose seltzer and someone else has a beer, they can still talk and get to know one another...maybe even become friends themselves. </p>
<p>Last year, at an annual Christmas party given by a friend who never drinks , a guest who didn't even realize that showed up with a bottle of wine. The hostess didn't refuse his gift..she quietly asked a neighbor (it's an apartment building) to go get a corkscrew and then she opened the bottle and left it there with the non-alcoholic beverages, so anyone who wanted some could serve him/herself.</p>
<p>I can go out for dinner with friends to a restaurant and some of us will order an alcholic beverage with our meal and some of us will not. Some may one week and not do so the next. It's no big deal. </p>
<p>If the only place to get together were a bar, some of my friends wouldn't come at all. (I drink myself, but I don't think I would either. I don't like bars.) If the only place to socialize were a bar, I bet that some people would go to the bar just because they wanted to socialize and drink more than they intended. I think that's kind of what happens at college parties. </p>
<p>I'm sure all of you who are sure your kids will never drink and are better off not associating with anyone below the age of 21 who ever engages in illegal drinking are also quite happy knowing that your kids will get to know fewer of their classmates well and, whether you want to believe it or not, will have more limited alumni contact later. After all, they will never go to the same parties as 70%+ of their classmates. On the typical campus, if things like student body prez mean something, do you think the kids who only socialize with non-drinkers are going to have much of a chance of being elected--unless they are star athletes or well known on campus for other reasons? </p>
<p>A friend of one of my kid's had a grandfather in the wine business. He illegally supplied his gs with different kinds of wine. The gs held a wine tasting once a week for two hours. The other kids in the dorm took turns buying different kinds of cheese and crackers. They tried different kinds of wine in small amounts. The hilarious thing is the net result is my kid ended up loving all sorts of weird cheese! Nobody got drunk, and when word of the different sorts of cheese being sampled spread, some non-drinkers came and tried those. So, the kids bought seltzer and soda too. It just turned into a very pleasant get together at a set time once a week where nothing got out of control. So, EVERYONE in the administration looked the other way.. and YEP, I'm glad they did. </p>
<p>It's not just that kids are drinking, it's that they are using phony I.D.s. Newsweek reported that while Barbara Bush was at Yale, a Toad's (nightclub) guard confiscated her phony ID--a fake Maryland driver's license. (Note: it is the other Bush twin who got picked up for underage drinking.) A very conservative estimate would be that 40% of underage US college students who do not have religious scruples against drinking have phony IDs of one sort or another. </p>
<p>The folks manufacturing these phony IDs are the same ones who make them for illegal aliens and your friendly neighborhood terrorist. If the college kid market dried up over night, they'd be out of business. The other market isn't big enough and they'd be a lot more conspicuous. </p>
<p>Yes, raising the drinking age to 21 MAY have helped reduce the # of kids driving drunk. But at what cost? When a lot of people think a law is wrong and ignore it, the disrespect for law is insidious. When college kids think laws that stop them from drinking are silly, when they flout the law to get phony IDs and use it to buy liquor or just get into a club where they want to dance, they learn that you can just ignore laws you don't like. That's a really bad thing in a democracy. </p>
<p>I'm sorry this is so long, but it's a subject I feel strongly about. I think zero tolerance is a huge mistake. I think it's a mistake to make getting caught having a couple of beers with a pizza while watching a football game with friends --some of whom choose coke or bottled water instead--is seen as the legal and moral equivalent of engaging in a vodka-shot contest or playing a stupid game like beer pong.</p>
<p>jmmom, as I said, that has not been the experience of my kids, or their friends, (nor our family's experience as we've been around several college campuses through the years). Certainly <em>some</em> kids get drunk, and I'm sure some vomit, etc. but it hasn't been a case of every night, every weekend, in every hallway of every dorm, with every roommate. These things happen but I'm skeptical about the frequency with which many think they happen at most schools. Maybe there <em>are</em> schools out there where it happens ALL the time, but I've never seen that, nor have my kids, nor any of their friends who are at many campuses across two countries.</p>
<p>Does this mean that none of them will EVER be exposed to that kind of thing? No, but it also doesn't mean that they're faced with it on a regular basis. There are lots of different issues which college kids face for the first time, including drinking, difficult roommates, being sexiled, loneliness, independence. Many involve making decisions on their own which can be a challenge even for the most mature and experienced of our kids. I think that learning to make these decisions, and others, are part of the college experience which allows them to move into young adulthood. It may not always be a smooth or easy transition, but continuing to shelter them from this type of decision-making and exposure is not the answer either.</p>
<p>The non-binge student is, in most cases, in the majority, even if the non-drinker isn't. I honestly have never heard one of my kids, their friends, or the kids who I work with, say that it's been a problem for them.</p>
<p>edited to say to jonri, bravo! :)</p>
<p>Joining alwaysamom to say to jonri, bravo!</p>
<p>And thank you, always~, for posting your observations. I may have had selective memory about the prevailing expectation I see portrayed here. But yours provides an alternative or balanced view.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What is the reality today for a non-bingeing college student?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here are some sample statistics from recent student survey at a top LAC. These are the percentages of responding students who had experienced each of these things during that academic year:</p>
<p>-- 34% of students felt pressured to have a drink they did not want or to drink more than they wanted</p>
<p>-- 36% required help from others after becoming intoxicated</p>
<p>-- 26% had to apologize to a friend or acquaintance for their offensive behavior (while under the influence)</p>
<p>-- 29% got into an argument or fight (while under the influence)</p>
<p>-- 13% got into trouble with the police or College authorities (while under the influence)</p>
<p>-- 25% of students had personal property damaged by a student who had been drinking</p>
<p>-- 49% had witnessed damage to the personal property of others by students who had been drinking</p>
<p>-- 42% had witnessed damage to communal College property by students who had been drinking</p>
<p>-- 35% of students had been unable to study or prepare for class because of the use of alcohol by others</p>
<p>-- 78% had been kept awake or awakened because of alcohol use by others</p>
<p>-- 36% of students (64% of non-drinkers) had difficulty enjoying campus events because of the presence of students who had been using alcohol</p>
<p>-- 71% had encountered unsanitary conditions in their dormitory or house due to the excessive drinking of others</p>
<p>**-- 27% (43% of non-drinkers) had felt unsafe in the presence of students who had been using alcohol</p>
<p>-- 10% had experienced sexual harassment or attack by someone who had been using alcohol</p>
<p>-- 6% had experienced physical attack by someone who had been using alcohol**</p>
<p>I disagree that subfree dorms are there for the parents. My D insisted on it, not I. I just returned from Parent's Weekend, and every girl on her floor chose the dorm because they believe in the subfree lifestyle. Since over 20% of the kids on campus requested it, it is growing.</p>
<p>jmmom, thank you to you, too. I think it's important to show that not everyone is on one particular side of every issue and this issue is one that keeps being raised each year, with seemingly more people of the 'abolition' view. In reality, I think that that is the minority opinion; it certainly has been in our experience. </p>
<p>By the way, I seem to remember that your S is one of the Tulane kids who relocated. Am I correct? My D3 has met a few kids at the Univ. of Toronto who arrived there after the hurricane. It made me think of CC when she told me. :)</p>
<p>You know, I haven't seen anyone on this board who has favored prohibition at colleges, even though drinking under the age of 21 is illegal. So I think discussions of same are a complete red herring. I also haven't seen anyone on this board who doesn't think raising the drinking age hasn't saved thousands of lives - the data really is too overwhelming to really try to make that argument (it would resemble arguments against immunization.) I also note that none of us have attempted to address the issue as to why heavy and binge drinking rates among non-college-attending 18-21-year-olds are so much lower than those at residential four year colleges. And perhaps we shouldn't: general social policy is not the subject of this board; college is.</p>
<p>The reality is that it IS possible to reduce heavy, binge, and dangerous drinking on college campuses without general prohibition. I can name a dozen campuses that have done so (as I already have), and they do so in different ways. Of course, there are always good reasons not to, like there are always good reasons not to stop drinking.</p>
<p>"The non-binge student is, in most cases, in the majority, even if the non-drinker isn't. I honestly have never heard one of my kids, their friends, or the kids who I work with, say that it's been a problem for them."</p>
<p>On the average four-year college campus today, AMONG DRINKERS, those who been binge drinking in the past two weeks are the majority. This is based on data from hundreds of campuses, large and small, religious and secular, rural and urban, over the past ten years, based both upon survey data and direct observation. The percentages are, roughly 44% binge; 31% moderate; 25% abstainers. We know pretty well from experimental data and direct observation that the binge category is an underestimate - it is relatively rare for a student to binge just once in a two-week period, and heavy drinking (minimum 2 a day for a 10-day period) is on the rise. But averages are just that: averages: the differences among campuses vary very widely. Just among the LACs I know, the binge category rates vary from the low 20s to the low 50s.</p>
<p>That's why, if it is a concern (and it may not be), one should throw out the useless canard that there is drinking on all campuses, and really kick the tires. Overnights on Thursday nights will often reveal what you want to know.</p>