Coleman looking for more OOS

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
21

<p>"I think the bearcats analysis omits the most important consideration. The governing Board of Regents is elected by citizens of the State of Michigan and as such owes a duty to the constituency that elects them. "</p>

<p>No, actually you are missing the point. Michigan should not be answering to the state of michigan if they don’t pony up their share. So if the state is paying its share, they deserve the right to be electing Michigan’s board of regent. If the state is not paying its share, then they do not. Michigan should be doing what’s best for Michigan, not the state of michigan. That’s the point. So what you are saying is irrelevant.</p>

<p>“In addition, taking a look at operating statements overlooks a number of imputed costs. For example, the operating budget does not include a line item for rental value of various real estate and other assets funded by the State of Michigan over the years or the value of governmental services provided at no cost to a tax-exempt entity.”</p>

<p>If you are going to talk about that, do you want to start valuating the benefit Michigan provides to the state at no cost?</p>

22

<p>There’s no easy answer but deep inside I think there still exists the fundamental obligations that are inherit in the concept of state-centric higher education that exists in good times and in bad times. There are also differing state executions and models of this to varying degrees of economic success. To blow up the model means never turning back so proceeding cautiously, as Michigan has done over the years and evidenced by their endowment, is good practice. Whenever you have tiered customers there is a ripple effect throughout the chain, in this case what happens at State, GVSU and the directionals that can also be positive or negative. Finally, it’s more about projections over the long haul and not about a decade blip in economics and birthrates. Managing through that is a more conservative approach than blowing it up and starting over. I doubt you’ll ever see instate dip to 20% undergrad without tweaking many other variables first.</p>

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<p>I am not missing the point. I did not say that the regents should be answer to the State of Michigan. I said they should answer to the people of the State of Michigan. Whether you like it or not, the University of Michigan belongs to the people of the State of Michigan and the Constitution of the State of Michigan gives the people of the State of Michigan the power to elect the governing Board of Regents for the University who are authorized to set the tuition rates for the University. The Regents do not report to the legislature that appropriates the state subsidy nor does their power come from the out of state students who wish to attend the university.</p>

<p>If the OOS tuition were too high, then I presume the OOS students wouldn’t come and the Regents would have to lower the OOS tuition to attract the OOS students.</p>

24

<p>No, you are STILL missing the point. If you bought a house, of course the house belongs to you, until you stop paying your mortgage/upkeep/property tax. </p>

<p>Using that analogy, Michigan would be the house, and the state of michigan would be the homeowner who has been paying less than 50% of its mortgage/upkeep/property tax and should have been foreclosed on, but is allowed to keep the house and enjoy the full benefit of owning the house.</p>

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<p>Perhaps a parallel would be illuminating. We are an OOS family and, frankly, Michigan would be ideal for our son. His numbers make him competitive to get into the lower half of the Ivies (Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell and Penn), yet he would really benefit from the breadth and depth of Michigan. A wide range of bright kids and strong faculty with ample cross-pollination opportunities.</p>

<p>But at this point I’m not even sure that he should apply. The university does so little in FA for OOS students - because there are so many out there who can pay full fee - that they will lose my son and those like him for (on average) slightly lower-ranked kids whose folks can pay the whole tab. Ironically, the Ivies (and most upper-tier liberal arts schools) provide more grant aid than the delta in their sticker price with Michigan. It will be far cheaper for us to send him to Brown than to Michigan, though for what he wants (computer science), Michigan’s resources (and esp things like their entrepreneurship center) are more attractive.</p>

<p>My alma mater, the University of Virginia, faces many of the same challenges in terms of funding. The state’s (technically commonwealth’s) share of UVA’s funding has dwindled almost to zero. Five or so years ago, UVA took an aggressive stand and has become, essentially, the university-level equivalent of a charter school. While they still preference in-state kids to a somewhat similar level, they have pursued their own financial independence by focusing everything on getting the absolutely top kids. The Access UVA program means that no child graduates with more than a year’s tuition’s worth of debt. Above that and Virginia meets all needs with grants. That means that top OOS - and in-state - kids can afford to go there.</p>

<p>Conversely, our own state’s flagship (UIUC) continues to raise in-state tuition, and of course Illinois is in even worse financial shape than Michigan. My son got one of those “why not apply here too?” packages from Harvard the other day. Not that he’s going to apply, but because of their aid it would be cheaper for him to go there than the U of I - in state. Other top LAS’s - like Swarthmore for example - have similarly bet on quality.</p>

<p>Perhaps Michigan should take a look at what Virginia has done, if the goal is to preserve its hard-earned and easily-lost reputation for academic excellence.</p>

26

<p>You are STILL missing the point. I think the analogy is, Michigan would be the house, the people of the State of Michigan own the house, the in-state students are the people who live in the house, the OOS students are tenants, the state appropriation is a homeowner’s subsidy.</p>

<p>The owner of the house is able to choose how much rent it wants to charge its tenants as long as the tenants are willing to pay the amount of the rent charged. As long as the rent it charges from its tenants plus the amount of the homeowner’s incentive and the amount contributed by the residents is enough for the socalled “mortgage/upkeep/property tax”, the homeowner keeps the house.</p>

<p>The OOS applications keep coming at higher rates than ever before. If the University were overcharging the OOS tuition then the OOS applications would stop coming. Apparently U-M is a reasonable cost alternative for the OOS.</p>

<p>I don’t want this to be interpreted that the OOS are not welcome. Quite to the contrary. The balance of OOS and in-state is part of what makes Michigan the premier institution that it is and distinguishes it from other state institutions including the one in East Lansing. However, the right to administer the school and set tuition rates belongs to the representatives elected by Michigan residents. It is a perfectly reasonable public objective to set tuition rates as low as possible for Michigan residents regardless of the appropriation approved by the legislature (under Michigan law, the legislature does not have the authority to govern the affairs of the University) and regardless of the cost to the OOS (which is still lower than comparable private institutions suggesting that there is some imputed benefit contributed by the State).</p>

<p>I would suggest that you move to Michigan so you will be able to send your children to U-M at the in-state tuition rate.</p>

27

<p>UVa could do that because they had relatively few low income students and many full pay wealthy ones. As soon as the AccessUva program started more lower income OOS kids applied and got aid. This cost UVa in two ways–less OOS tuition collected and covering the COA for poor OOS students was very expensive. After just a few years they are taking a hard look at putting limits on the program.</p>

<p>[BOV</a> told further study needed on AccessUVa | Daily Progress](<a href=“http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2012/feb/06/bov-told-further-study-needed-accessuva-ar-1668982/]BOV”>http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2012/feb/06/bov-told-further-study-needed-accessuva-ar-1668982/)</p>

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<p>anyone else still waiting for vlad’s calculations?</p>

29

<p>But there is no free lunch. When the income is not sufficient to pay for the “mortgage/upkeep/property tax” and “home improvement”, the homeowner has a painful choice of letting the house run down, or like UIUC, continuing to raise in-state tuition, or both.</p>

<p>We can all learn a lesson from Illinois:</p>

<p>"In 2006, when hit with intense public criticism, university officials withdrew a proposal to admit more out-of-state students. At that time, the university wanted to boost the percentage of nonresidents in its freshman class at the flagship campus in Urbana-Champaign.</p>

<p>The plan was fiercely opposed by parents who wanted their sons and daughters – not students from out of state – to get those prized slots at the state’s top public university. After all", they said, they were the ones paying taxes to support the university.</p>

<p>But today, that’s a harder argument to make. The Legislature has continue to cut funding for higher education to the point where it’s an open question whether the dollars that come from Springfield soon will do much more than cover the costs of complying with many government mandates.</p>

<p>As the state continues to cut back its commitment to higher education, the question becomes how to preserve the University of "Iinois’ status as a great public university. Admitting more nonresident students may be part of the answer.</p>

<p>Educators long have argued that out-of-state students and those from abroad enrich the academic environment by adding diversity. But those students also generally pay significantly higher tuition than the discounted prices charged to in-state students. In theory, the state makes up the difference, but the Legislature has broken that bond.</p>

<p>That explains why tuition at the U. of I. keeps shooting up, including a 9.5 percent increase this year. In fact, there has been an almost dollar-for-dollar correlation between increasing tuition and declining state support.</p>

<p>This year, the Legislature appropriated $673 million, the same as last year, but then promptly slashed that by about $46 million - an amount that roughly equals revenue from the most recent tuition increase. Five years ago, the state appropriated $802 million…</p>

<p>… If Illinois wants a top public university, one way or another we have to pay for it." (<a href=“http://www.uillinois.edu/clips/september-13-2010.pdf[/url]”>http://www.uillinois.edu/clips/september-13-2010.pdf&lt;/a&gt;)</p>

<p>Undergraduate resident 2011-12 tuitions & fees range from $14,414-19,238 ([University</a> of Illinois Financial Aid: Undergraduate Resident 2010-2011 Cost](<a href=“http://www.osfa.illinois.edu/cost/undergrad/res_1112.html]University”>http://www.osfa.illinois.edu/cost/undergrad/res_1112.html))</p>

<p>p.s. Note that state appropriate for UIUC was $627 million, compared to $269M for Michigan.</p>

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<p>^exactly. And the irony of what Illinois is paying tax wise to sort of support it’s flagship is that many posters can be encountered on cc who live in Illinois and find the INSTATE cost too high compared to generous privates elsewhere, so in many cases they end up losing the full pay instate kids (which happens to umich as well in some cases.)</p>

<p>So if Michigan taxpayers want to pay say, 2.5 times current tax contributions toward operating costs and still have tuition that’s usually about 30-40% more than other instate options, well then it might be able to argue that umich owes it’s residents more spot.</p>

<p>Again, I have benefitted enormously from this state of affairs, but nonetheless bearcats is correct – the state is in default and the mortgage is being subsidized by the free market of OOS students. Think of it as a ginormous balloon payment coming in an interest-only loan, to beat the housing metaphor to death. As usual, folks won’t know what they had until it’s gone ;)</p>

31

<p>“p.s. Note that state appropriate for UIUC was $627 million, compared to $269M for Michigan”</p>

<p>Since Illinois state finances are worst in the nation (except Cal.), I’m sure there will be pressure to reduce this contribution and increase OOS in coming years, despite residents complaints about losing slots.</p>

<p>UM will have another competitor for strong OOS students. UM needs to maintain highest academic standards, to stay well above UIUC, UW, etc. To do this they need to admit the best classes possible, which may include more OOS students, that have higher credentials than some in-state getting in now…</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>Do you have a source for the claim that only 30% of grad student’s tuition is covered by grants?</p></li>
<li><p>You picked the 2nd highest tuition differential for grad I could find. The tution differential for Law, Medicine, Engineering, Social Work, Pharmacy, Natural Resources, Public Health, Public Policy, Business, and Architecture are all less than that. The difference between IS and OOS for Business is less than 3K a term, and for Law is less than $1500 a term. The only one which was more than your estimate was Art & Design which had a difference of about $200 more. </p></li>
<li><p>Where’s your source that 25% of grads take spring/summer classes? There aren’t any grad classes offered as far as I know of. Show me some evidence of it. </p></li>
<li><p>Even with your outrageous overestimations in those regards, you didn’t count grads as students in your percentage? Even going by your numbers (which are obviously false) the percentage should be 29%. (7069+.35*13000)/40000</p></li>
<li><p>Where is your source that 25% of students (undergrad or overall) take both spring and summer classes. One or the other is a big difference in pay. Additionally, a lot take only 1 class, so there is lower tuition (and thus a lower difference).</p></li>
<li><p>The claim that LSA upper division tuition is the middle of the road is non-sense. The difference between upper division tuition in LSA for OOS/IS is greater than it is for Ross and CoE, and equal to Art & Design and Architecture. It’s also higher than all the lower division tuition differences. You cannot claim that was a conserative estimate, you picked the highest estimate.</p></li>
</ol>

33

<p>You guys are complicating matters. Below are a couple of calculations that demonstrate how the state is not funding the University sufficiently to justify the current in-state/out-of-state ratio:</p>

<ol>
<li></li>
<li>In-state undergraduate tuition ~$13,300</li>
<li>OOS undergraduate tution ~$39,200</li>
<li>In-state students are subsidized to the tune of $26,000/student. </li>
<li>That $26,000 of foregone income for each undergraduate resident. </li>
<li>There are 16,000 undergraduate residents</li>
<li>Total income lost = 16,000 X $26,000 = $416 million</li>
<li>Michigan receives only $268 million from the state</li>
<li>Income from the state ($268 million) - university income foregone as a result of subsidies to in-state students ($416 million) = $150 million of lost income. </li>
</ol>

<p>According to this calculation, Michigan should have 10,000 undergraduate in-state students, not 16,000.</p>

<ol>
<li>Michigan’s cost of operation, not including the Michigan hospitals, is $3 billion. Michigan receives $268 million from the state. State funding represents only 9% of the total cost of operation.</li>
</ol>

<p>Either way, no matter how you slice it, the University has to find alternative sources of income if it is to maintain its elite status.</p>

34

<p>The U of I number includes the UI Chicago campus which includes the expensive med school. UIUC gets maybe half that amount.</p>

35

<p>Thanks barrons, that makes sense. I thought that might be the case.</p>

36

<p>Using some of these arguments, should donors to U of M should also be given preferential treatment as they have contributed more to support the university over time?</p>

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<p>As for momofthreeboys comment about the “other” Michigan colleges, if UMich were to decrease the freshmen class sizes to about 5,000 students it would have a great effect on Michigan public universities. Also, if UMich were to decrease the IS/OOS ratio to about 50/50 then MSU, GVSU and the directional colleges would receive increased applications and therefore a higher caliber student body at those institutions. Also, UMich would become more selective and become even more appealing to OOS students. I’m curious to see what UMich will do in the future in regards to freshmen class size and IS/OOS ratios.</p>

38

<p>a bit of good news:</p>

<p>"State Budget Plan to Boost Funding </p>

<p>A statewide higher education budget plan would provide additional funding to all three U-M campuses and soften troublesome language on reporting stem cell research. Under this plan, Ann Arbor would receive an additional $4.25 million, Flint would receive an additional $1.34 million, and Dearborn would receive an additional $882,500. And a statewide pool of $9 million would be distributed to universities that raise tuition no more than 4 percent. </p>

<p>The plan makes several changes to the performance metrics used to evaluate state universities for funding. Most of the comparisons among schools will be to peer institutions in their Carnegie Classifications for type of institution instead of to each other…"</p>