Colgate (Benton Scholar) vs. Amherst

Colleges and Universities A-Z Colgate University
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<p>Got into both.</p>

<p>Benton Scholar at Colgate.
Colgate:</a> Benton Scholars
It's a fairly elite group of about twenty, that basically just get a bunch of perks. From meeting world leaders up close like Colin Powell, to trips to Russia or India. This Dan Benton guy donated like 25 million for the program, and it's only it's second year in existence.</p>

<p>Amherst is pretty difficult to pass up though.</p>

<p>No idea which to choose. While I value getting the best education, I also would like to have some fun in college, and I have my doubts about Amherst's social atmosphere. However, it's prestige, especially in this economy is a big factor... an alum told me that if I don't choose Amherst, I'm probably not smart enough to go there. I thought that was a pretty good line. Thoughts?</p>

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<p>Amherst is probably more prestigious but the Benton Scholars programe will give you great exposure.
All in all, it depends on what you want and what fits you best.
Both options are great.
All the best!</p>

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<p>To me, that’s an obnoxious line and not something to be swayed by because it certainly isn’t cut and dry. You’re obviously smart enough to go there since you were accepted. From what I have seen from my friends out of Colgate and Amherst, Colgate was the more fun place to go. Amherst is definitely the more academically respected place, not that Colgate isn’t respected enough to do the same things afterwards, though; especially since that is going to be determined more by the individual and luck than by the school. 750 a class/D-I sports/fraternities/rural is a fair amount different environment than 450 a class/D-III sports/no fraternites/suburban. Which do you like better? What are you looking to go into?</p>

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<p>Amherst is a much more prestigious school and definitely more well-known. It is a much more difficult school to be accepted into, so if I were you, I would choose Amherst.</p>

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<p>Yes, Amherst has lots of prestige but I am not sure it is better known nationally or internationally. Doesn’t that have to do with the respondent? Colgate students and alumni represent the university very well indeed, in my opinion.</p>

<p>Moving along, what I think is more important are fit and outcomes. Fit is how you feel when you visit and engage with others on campus (as I assume you are doing now) and outcomes arise during your (hopefully fulfilling) times on campus, on off-campus study, and then as an alumnus/a. What’s your trajectory? Only you can decide that! Received wisdom, especially that snarky “not smart enough” noise is not helpful at all. It’s really a distraction from what is my main point: You have to make your own decision for the right reasons: your own reasons!</p>

<p>Good luck with your deliberations!</p>

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<p>As someone who grew up in Hamilton, NY, I’ll give you a heads up. Local residents hate Colgate students with a passion. It has the worst town-gown relationship I’ve ever seen, and I looked at quite a few schools.</p>

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<p>Why would anyone who hopes you’ll attend a college sat you may not “be smart enough” if you didn’t choose to go there? That’s a bit of an insult, isn’t it? I know students who were accepted to Harvard, Yale and Stanford who turned them down to go to more interesting colleges, smaller colleges, colleges where classes are taught in small groups through discussion,not lecture, or where a special program attracted them. Lecture is used far too often even top ranked universities – many Yale undergrad classes are large lecture classes, I’m told by students. Colgate relies mainly on small group classes. </p>

<p>As far as the difference between Colgate and Amherst, what you are most likely referring to is their “ranking” order. By that measurement, Amherst is ranked higher whatever exactly that means. Rankings are a combination of the size of the college’s endowment, number of volumes in the library, other colleges view of how prestigious they are (believe it or not), and many other factors which by any reasonable standards will have little or not effect on your life. Do you care much whether the college you attend has a 400m dollar endowment or an 800m dollar endowment? I don’t. Do you care if the library has 500,000 volumes or a million volumes? I doubt you do. And so on. Too many students base their choice of college on these predigested rankings without ever thinking much about where they would be most happy. As a teacher, I’ve seen this over and over, students choosing a higher ranked school only to discover that it was not a good fit for them and ending up not enjoying it. Sometimes the top school is not the one which matches what you need or who you are. Some of these highly ranked colleges, for example, emphasize their graduate schools far more than their undergraduates educations which get much less attention. Professors focus on graduate students, not undergrads.</p>

<p>This would not be an issue in choosing between Colgate and Amherst, two excellent colleges which offer first-rate educations. The major differences, beyond the fairly small difference in ranking number, are their locations, their size, their programs, their athletics, and other factors. They are similar schools in many ways, but Colgate has big aspirations which the small New England colleges do not. This is most noticeable in Colgate’s Division I sports program compared to Amherst’s Division III small college sports and in Colgate’s extensive off-campus programs and other factors. In rankings of mid-career earnings, Colgate’s average ranks at the very top while schools like Amherst rank far lower. In terms of accessibility to blacks and other ethnic minorities, Colgate ranks near the top, far above Amherst. In terms of name recognition, I’m afraid to the average person neither college will be recognizable to 90% of people like big universities are. Colgate ranks easily as good as Amherst in most practical factors such as quality of education and post-college careers and others. Remember, there are at least 2,000 colleges and universities in this country, so talking about two colleges ranked in the top 1 or 2% as being “better” or “worse” starts to get silly really fast. </p>

<p>The only way to choose a college that will make any sense to you over the years is to choose the college you feel will benefit you the most, the college where you feel happiest. That decision has to come from your view of the colleges – their locations, their faculty, the types of courses and academic programs, their extracurriculars, their sense of “spirit” and camaraderie, their reputations, and so forth. If you have not visited each, try to do so, and choose the one you feel best about. You are in an enviable situation, having been accepted to two top universities, one ranked in the top 1% of the nation’s colleges and the other ranked “only” in the top 2% of the nation’s colleges. </p>

<p>As for the amusing remark about Hamilton residents “hating” Colgate students, perhaps “anonymous” hated them, but I’ve known many “locals” who did not any more than local residents usually do. Many citizens of Hamilton, not just store owners but locals who work at Colgate and people who simply live on streets where you may live are wonderful friendly people. A few may resent the college kids which is understandable if you a young person growing up in a small rural town. Resenting the “rich” college kids is an old story in dozens of college towns. In many college towns, students sometimes act childishly and do stupid things. That includes Amherst, Massachusetts which, after all, has four colleges located in the same town, including U.Mass! I imagine those locals really get sick of college students! </p>

<p>Colgate has spent a great deal of money resurrecting the local movie theater, building its university bookstore downtown, a coffee shop, and supporting the town in other ways. Hamilton as a town would be a small farm village without Colgate and local residents know this. If they wanted to live away from college students, I suppose they’d move. After all, Colgate has been there for nearly 200 years. </p>

<p>As for Colgate vs. Amherst, do your research, visit each if possible, and make your choice. You will most likely love the college you choose whichever one it is. They are both excellent, but both somewhat different. I know which one I’d choose. :)</p>

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<p>I’d like to disagree with the claim that Colgate is more accessible to blacks and other ethnic minorities than Amherst’s. If you care to actually check, you’ll find that USNews ranks Amherst 2nd in terms of diversity, while Colgate is 21. If you want to point out Colgate’s higher mid-career earnings, I’ll point out Amherst grad’s higher starting salaries.</p>

<p>If you think that endowment isn’t a significant portion, I would disagree. Amherst’s endowment allows them to meet 100% demonstrated need in addition to being need-blind, including to international students. That makes Amherst 1 of 6 colleges or universities able to do that. Needless to say, Colgate is not one of them. I’d say that’s significant, but maybe you disagree.</p>

<p>In regard to sports, you have a valid point that Amherst is Div III compared to Colgate’s Div I. My only explanation for that is that Amherst students are by-and-large more concerned with their education than sports, something that definitely can’t be said for Colgate. And I’m sure you’ll attribute my blatant bias to me being a “local kid” that hates Colgate. I really can’t stress enough that it’s not just the kids. Colgate’s frats run the town, and there’s nothing to like about that. Locals 3 blocks away are woken up on a near-nightly basis during the spring from their parties, and the town police make regular rounds to quiet them down. Businesses in town actively refuse to hire Colgate students because they’ve been found to be unreliable.</p>

<p>I definitely agree that small class size is important, and since you pointed out how Colgate relies on small group classes, I’ll point out that Amherst’s classes, on average, are 16% smaller than Colgate’s. I’m surprised you pointed out how graduate programs can sometimes detract from the education of undergrads, as Colgate has graduate students, while Amherst focuses itself entirely on undergrads.</p>

<p>I noticed you quoted “rich” college kids. The funny part is that when talking about Colgate, that’s surprisingly true. Colgate is one of the most expensive colleges, on par with Amherst, with the difference being Amherst’s phenomenal financial aid compared to Colgate’s. This results in Colgate having very few students from low-income backgrounds, a moderate amount from middle-class families, but a shockingly disproportionate number of students from upper class families. I’ve never been to a college town with more Mercedes and popped collars.</p>

<p>I don’t mean to be ripping on Colgate, because it is a very good school. But I didn’t like the way your post seemed to come across as making Colgate better than it actually is. It’s a very good school. Not a great one.</p>

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<p>Oh Anonynmous315,</p>

<p>Your mean spirited words interfere with some of your message and here’s why:</p>

<p>1- I don’t know any Hamilton residents who “hate Colgate students with a passion”, as you put it. In contrast, I find that the ties on several levels are strong due to the social and business interactions that overlap the 2 communities and in most respects make them one community.</p>

<p>2- One dimension of this overlap is delivered through D1 sports which I expect you can validate as a former resident. There were hundreds of local residents at today’s men’s lacrosse win over No. 9 Army today at Andy Kerr Stadium. They all seemed to have a good time and it started with the tailgate where food was promoted by 4 local restaurants.</p>

<p>3- And about sports, what in the world do you mean when you state that certain other students are “by and large more concerned with their education than sports”. What do you know about the motivations, aspirations, outcomes, GPAs etc of Colgate student-athletes? After all, Colgate has the highest graduation rate in D1 in the US which is testament to the discipline they deliver on the sports field/rink/pool/court and the results in the classroom. That’s dedication for you- a sacrifice hardly demanded by programs at the D3 level.</p>

<p>4- And about fraternities running the town, well, that’s a bit rich. There are 6 fraternities housing at most 300 men of Colgate’s 2900 students. Yes, they do have parties and I don’t doubt that there is night time noise on occasion during the spring season. Colgate has the work hard/play hard mindset and it’s represented in lots of activities sponsored by various campus-run organizations alongside these fraternities. Nothing surprising there!</p>

<p>5- Lastly, your bit about 16% larger class sizes at Colgate than Amherst and the part about Colgate’s graduate students, is a tad weak, if you don’t mind me saying… Are you talking about 2 more students in a senior seminar or maybe about the 8-10 graduate students who each year pursue the Master of Arts degree in Teaching- as students themselves? Why not put some effort into describing the number of majors, study groups, and institutes sponsored by the university if you want to make a point? </p>

<p>All in all, I think Colgate does very well indeed when compared to the most elite liberal arts colleges. It’s extremely well managed with 45 years of balanced budgets. Yes, its endowment can do with some growth and the $440 million capital campaign (now past the $400 million mark) is addressing the desire for need-blind capability. Colgate is unique, of course, and that what sets it apart from the much smaller liberal arts colleges. To my mind that’s what makes Colgate so appealing!</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t say that there are “very few” students from low-income backgrounds - 37.2% of students are on financial aid with an average aid package of $40,000 (cost of attendance is $54,000). So more than 1/3 students is only paying an average of $13k per year to attend. It’s really hard to tell if someone is on financial aid or not, since it’s not exactly polite to bring it up. Appearances can be deceiving - that preppy girl in your English class might be on full financial aid while the scruffy artist guy in the torn jeans might be the kid of a millionaire. You just don’t know. The ability to be need-blind in admissions isn’t really applicable to a student that is already accepted, since they meet 100% of accepted students’ need.</p>

<p>In one of my high-level Sociology courses, there was a girl who played varsity basketball who was double majoring and would be taking enough courses in another department to minor in that as well. She was really insulted by the idea that she wasn’t there for the academics and that she was a brainless meathead athlete. That’s just anecdata, of course, but my experience definitely differed. Only something like 19% of students are varsity athletes anyway…</p>

<p>One thing I loved about Colgate is that it was big enough that you could have a completely different experience than another student if you wanted - I never went to a single frat party, but was a club sport athlete, yet was very focused on schoolwork and had a great time there.</p>

<p>There are fewer than 10 grad students at any given time (2 graduated with my undergrad class), all getting MAs in Education, and most people have no idea Colgate even has any grad students. It’s a non-issue.</p>

<p>I had a friend that went to Amherst and they party pretty hard there too! I was really surprised by the amount (and timing…) of the drinking that she described, and she was on the studious side…</p>

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<p>You guys all have valid points-- and once again, I don’t want to be bashing Colgate. I know I come across strong, but Colgate is a very good school. But the one point I’m sticking on is the town-gown relationship. Yes, locals show up at the athletic events, and yes, local venders see it as an opportunity to make money. In such a small town, there’s not much else to do. Local venders and restaurants realize that they don’t stand a chance if they don’t get business from Colgate kids. That doesn’t make them like it.</p>

<p>I have no doubt at all that people are going to refute me and insist that Hamilton residents and Colgate students get along fine, and it’s just like any other college town. But I cannot stress enough that this is not true. I’ve spent my whole life growing up in and around Colgate. I’ve taken classes at Colgate, worked for Colgate, grown up in town, worked in town, and I feel like I can honestly say I know better than other people what it’s like. Students have spent maybe 2-3 years there. Alums probably spent 4. I spent 18 years there.</p>

<p>Local kids don’t like Colgate. Their parents don’t like Colgate. The owners of local shops don’t like Colgate. Locals who work for Colgate don’t like Colgate.</p>

<p>Colgate owns the town, and it’s crystal clear. It’s been pointed out that Colgate has pumped a lot of money into the downtown movie theatre, coffeehouse, and moving their bookstore downtown. Yes, that’s true. If you look into it, however, you’ll notice that the “Hamilton Initiative,” is a for-profit group set up by Colgate to develop the town. Yes, it improves the town. But it’s a for-profit group. Colgate moved their bookstore because they found a bigger space that could make them more money. They own half the buildings downtown because they can make money. Don’t make it seem like Colgate is the generous college just handing money out to the town to make it a better place and establish a good relationship. They own the town because it let’s them do what they want. And if you would like to know how well they do at administrating those buildings, I urge you to read this article, written by a Colgate alum regarding Homecoming a few years ago:</p>

<p>[Colgate</a> University - Protecting Greek Life - sa4c](<a href=“http://www.sa4c.com/news/homecoming_brawl.htm]Colgate”>http://www.sa4c.com/news/homecoming_brawl.htm)</p>

<p>The Palace has had numerous instances over the past couple years, including a few stabbings. Nobody has been killed, but it has gotten to the point of emergency surgery to save their lives. And you could also notice in that article the way local police acted. They only stepped up and starting cracking down after SUNY kids had left and it was just Colgate students milling around. Is that fair, just, or the right thing to do? Absolutely not. But it’s what happens. The local police don’t like Colgate any more than the other residents do, and even this alum witnesses that.</p>

<p>I’m clearly beating a dead horse, and I’ll reiterate that Colgate University is a very good school with a lot of academic and athletic success. The only point I’m truly trying to drive home is that the town-gown relationship is bad. Really bad.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that you have strong and harsh opinions about issues such as fairness, the motives of the Hamilton Initiative people, the local police and businesses and for all I know lots of other issues.</p>

<p>Since they’re just that- opinions- I will retire my effort towards asking you to elaborate as to how helpful they are to the fortunate applicant who started this thread, what this has to do with the Amherst campus environment and/or the relationship it has with the town, and the mutual benefits and responsibilities in play between universities and their communities.</p>

<p>I would add though that there are many, many alumni as well as faculty and administrators resident in the community who have decades of experience in Hamilton. Many are active in organizations- of both a for and nonprofit nature- which have made terrific improvements in the town while also creating employment opportunities. I know full well what I am talking about as I am one of them. And I can assure you that the outcomes are most satisfying, tangible and verifiable. </p>

<p>One small but perfectly formed example of such smart thinking, execution and outcomes is the Colgate Inn which reopened on Friday. Its last major renovation was in the 70s when I was a student. The previous year a mass-market hotel chain was interested in knocking down the venerable Inn and building something “commercial”. That was not permitted then, that renovation proceeded, and now with the latest one we have a first class design hotel with the tavern reinstalled in its original space, 2 smart dining rooms for small or large functions, the Rathskellar (still under renovation) with a traditional but contemporary look. Unrelated to Colgate’s activities but of interest as well to visitors, I see that the Wendt Inn is adding 40 additional rooms this summer. In terms of visitors’ demand we are where we need to be. The dynamic is ongoing.</p>

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<p>mhartz20,</p>

<p>Getting back to the matter at hand- opportunities that await freshmen who are Benton Scholars- I suggest that you reach out to members of the group. I am sure that the Office of Admission can put you in contact with a few of them right away!</p>

<p>Best of luck with your plans!</p>

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<p>Mhartz started this thread two years ago and is now finishing up his/her sophomore year at Amherst…</p>

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<p>Thanks, jrpar. I had not noticed the 2009 date of the original post.</p>

<p>I hope that the updates about Colgate are helpful though as applicants read how the town/gown community has developed over time. A little while ago I saw an article in the Colgate Maroon about students running a contest whose aim is bikes for the community. It’s another example of working together for the common good.</p>

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<p>Markham, I think your posts are very helpful in responding specifically to some of the issues raised above. While many college towns have strained town-gown relations, I always thought that Colgate-Hamilton relations were relatively good. (I have to remember to tell my son that the frats run the town - I’m sure he didn’t know that. What a missed opportunity. :slight_smile: )</p>

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<p>The impression you seem to be trying to make is that Amherst is just swimming with poor minority kids who go to very small classes while Colgate is for “rich” white kids who suffer from overburdened class size. And Colgate kids drive expensive cars. Do students at Amherst mostly drive old beaters? Not the last time I was there. In fact it looked like a pretty ritzy place to me, and a whole lot more impressive in the parking lots than at UMass or Hampshire College, I have to say. </p>

<p>I’m not sure how anyone comes up with claims like these, but it’s always a good idea to compare facts. </p>

<p>I know quite a number of students, both those I attended Colgate with, those I’ve encouraged to go to Colgate (I’m a teacher), and among friends of students I know at Colgate who could not possibly be called “rich” by any stretch. Nor do they drive Mercedes. Nearly all the students I know of at Colgate are not rich. One of my Hispanic students from last year went to Colgate and a second (black) student from the same high school also attends Colgate now. Another black student will “probably” attend next year. Mind you, these are three students from one high school in California. </p>

<p>Among elite rich colleges like Amherst and Colgate, Amherst’s wealth must allow it to offer more financial aid to poorer students. But Colgate does very well with what it has. </p>

<p>In terms of numbers, Colgate’s website contains this statement: “The Class of 2014 is one of our most academically accomplished yet . . . Aside from these strong characteristics, this is our most diverse classes ever, with 26.2 percent of students claiming a multicultural background and 8.5 percent international students.” 26% is “multicultural” which I suppose means racial diversity, although I couldn’t locate separate black, white, Asian, etc. numbers. Still, for a rural “rich white kids” school, I’d say 26% is a pretty impressive figure, one that belies the image you have drawn of it. </p>

<p>Amherst reports its own figures: African American: 11%, Asian American: 11%, Hispanic: 11%, International: 9%. So, Amherst has 33% non-white, not exactly a startling difference compared to Colgate, particularly considering Amherst’s much greater wealth (as you note). You would think this would allow it to finance much higher numbers of non-traditional students’ educations since Colgate undoubtedly has to turn down many good minority and poor students who must need financial aid (white students, too, while we’re at it). </p>

<p>In fact, personally, given the unequal endowments of the two schools, I’m more impressed by how high Colgate’s minority numbers are than those of Amherst which I would have thought would be somewhat higher. But, then, I’m a little biased in this, I have to admit. </p>

<p>And since my own daughter is part of Colgate’s “racial diversity” (being mixed race) it’s an issue I pay some attention to and know a little about. Colgate is hardly an all-white “rich kids” school, but I suppose it may seem that way to an outsider or casual observer. One black educational journal in 2005 noted that Amherst enrolled 41 new black students while Colgate enrolled 26 new black students. This is not an insignificant difference, but when numbers get thrown around, let’s try to keep in mind that we are talking about small numbers. It would be easy to say that one school “enrolled 50% more minority students” than another school, but when the numbers are both this small that sort of alarmism does not shed much light on the subject. Amherst is not a hotbed of minority culture and neither is Colgate. </p>

<p>As for the “16% smaller class size” figure, I can’t help but smile. Let’s see, some basic math: Amherst’s website reports that average class size there is 16. Colgate’s website says it’s average class size (with a significantly larger student body) is 19. Anyone impressed either way? No, I didn’t think so.</p>

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<p>AS a parent of an African American daughter at Amherst, I feel I need to enter this discussion. Amherst is an incredible college. I’m not sure what you’re looking for socially but I can assure you that these kids work hard and play hard. There are all kinds of parties and social events weekly. I can’t imagine being socially bored. The academics are top-notched, the alumni network and connections another one of the reason to attend. It is a myth that the minority students are all low income. We pay full tuition for our daughter as do many other parents of students of color. There is a vibrant and profoundly diverse student body at Amherst. I definitely think you should visit for Admitted Student Day/weekend. Amherst is awesome.</p>