<p>My son is trying to decide between Colgate and Kenyon college. He is pre-med/history and interested in running. He can run at Kenyon (D-3) and only do running club at Colgate.</p>
<p>Long ago Kenyon grad here-- I love love loved Kenyon, and went to Colgate with accepted D a few weeks ago–very different “vibe” from Kenyon. Much more conservative feeling–Kenyon is still known as “bohemian prep”. Very different campus, though both isolated. Has he visited both?</p>
<p>what do you mean by saying Colgate has a more conservative feeling?</p>
<p>I have heard that Kenyon is more liberal and Colgate more conservative. I have also heard that Colgate is more of a jock school and has a more dominate fraternity/sorority scene than Kenyon. Can students fit in if they don’t go greek? I have to say that at an admitted Colgate student gathering that nearly every student that came to speak on behalf of Colgate said they were a greek member. </p>
<p>I worry that Kenyon has a much smaller endowment (200 mil vs. 700 mil at Colgate --at least before every thing crashed)and think that Colgate can be there for my son if we lose our jobs.</p>
<p>The science building at Colgate is very impressive and seems to exude lots of interdiscplinary interaction…but do not know if this is actually any better in reality over Kenyon’s very small student -faculty interaction that seems to be very helpful in getting into med school.</p>
<p>Both schools are great and in the end either would be a good choice–this is tougher than we thought.</p>
<p>Take a look at their policies on the things you might not be thinking about–interdisciplinary work (would he like to combine history/bio stuff? which school is more open to that?), off-campus study (which has more programs? is financial aid portable into off-campus study?), extra curriculars. Our impression of Colgate is that they tend to be more “by the book”–they have a way that they do things and that’s that, whereas Kenyon has a long tradition of flexibility. Greek life, by the way, is more more entrenched and traditional at Colgate than Kenyon–at Kenyon, the Greeks are in the main south end buildings, with independents sharing the same buildings. Colgate has traditional Greek houses, down at the bottom of the hill in their own semi-off-campus world. That Colgate science building is sure gorgeous, though! 
But I hear Kenyon has some new facilities! How does your son feel about climbing the Colgate hill all winter?</p>
<p>Freshmen don’t climb the hill - they live on top of it and classes are up there too. The upperclassmen climb the hill. :)</p>
<p>For study abroad, many (if not most) Colgate students who go abroad go on non-Colgate programs. This is the case at other colleges as well.</p>
<p>Sophomores now live on the hill too.</p>
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<p>This may be true for many schools but Colgate isn’t one of them. There are something like 25 different study abroad programs each led by a Colgate prof. I would guess that at least 75% of the Colgate students that go abroad do so on a Colgate-related group.</p>
<p>Gellino - I don’t think that’s the case for my son’s class (he’s a senior); nearly everyone who went away spring semester his junior year went on a non-Colgate program.</p>
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<p>One, at least, when I was there, ~ 70% of the Study Abroad trips are in the Fall semester. </p>
<p>Two, if you say, ~ 2/3 of Colgate students go abroad, this would ~ 480 students. If you say the 20 programs even have, on average, 12 students for each trip, which is very conservative (just thinking off the top of my head London-Econ, London-English, London-History, Manchester, Geneva, Venice, Colgate/Wesleyan/Vassar in Madrid, Wales, Dijon, Japan all had more than this) it would still be 50% (240/480) of students going abroad on Colgate trips. </p>
<p>Personally, of people I knew who went abroad on one of the Colgate groups was over 80%. Since it looks like all the same programs are still in tact, unless they have shrunk in size, I can’t imagine this has changed considerably. A quick glance at the website, looks like they have incrementally added a few programs since I was there.</p>
<p>Colgate has a bit stiffer policy regarding off-campus study, perhaps because they offer a lot of their own programs. If study abroad is important to you, I’d recommend researching it thoroughly at both schools. Here’s Colgate’s:
“Students receiving institutional aid who are not accepted into a Colgate study group and choose to enroll in a study group run by another college or university may not take their Colgate aid with them.”</p>
<p>And here’s Kenyon’s:
“If you currently receive financial aid from Kenyon, whether scholarship, loan, or Honors Scholarship, it is automatically applicable to OCS programs. The Office of Financial Aid will determine OCS costs and award financial aid based on the cost of Kenyon or the estimated cost of the program, whichever is less. Kenyon faculty or GLCA tuition remission is not transferable.”</p>
<p>This might not be important to you, but it’s an example of the kind of “secondary” stuff to research as you try to decide between two really excellent schools.</p>
<p>Gellino - it seems to have changed - when were you at Colgate? Many of the Colgate programs are small and the curriculum is relatively narrow - fabulous programs for those who want to study in that specific area but not as popular among those with broader interests. And the most popular semester to go abroad is the spring. The school now holds a lottery and tells the juniors which semester they can go abroad to try to space out the absences more evenly between the two semesters. My son’s advisor had to write a note of support for his petition to go in the spring (there was a particular course he had to take at Colgate offered only in the fall) - requests for a specific semester are only granted if there is an “academic rationale”. A couple of his friends were approved for the fall - and elected not to go abroad at all.</p>
<p>I was there in the last decade. That’s unfortunate that it seems to have changed. Having met a Colgate grad from a few years ago that was on the same program as me, it didn’t sound like it had changed that much. </p>
<p>The three London groups, Manchester, Geneva, Venice alone had ~ 110 students and were all Fall trips, which I always thought was the better semester to go from both a weather and logistics (preparing for the next year) standpoint.</p>
<p>I graduated last May, and having studied abroad myself and participated in study abroad panels and programs, I can say that it’s a lot more like gellino’s description, in my experience. There are now 24 programs, with a minimum number of 10 on each trip. the UK (8 trips), Australia, Geneva, and DC groups tend to have 20 or so - they’re really, really popular. So if there’s an average of 15 or so students on each group, that’s 360 juniors, out of around 700, or 51% of the whole class. since 69% of students study abroad, then only around 18% of students go through non-Colgate programs (vs the 51% that do). That works out to around 74% of students that go abroad going with Colgate.</p>
<p>People really only went with non-Colgate programs if the wanted to go somewhere that Colgate didn’t go, or if they weren’t accepted into one of the really popular Colgate programs. The lottery for spring vs fall is more for the popular programs and because everyone wants to go in the spring and the school logistically needs it to be balanced. It has an impact if you want to go to say… Japan in the spring, even though the Colgate program is in the fall. They may not approve it, because you have the opportunity to go in the fall and are just choosing not to.</p>
<p>Colgate financial aid doesn’t transfer to outside programs, but neither do tuition costs. You don’t pay at all for that semester, so if you can find a cheaper program or one with aid (or even outside scholarships and grants), it’s definitely possible to go for the same (or less) than you would with Colgate.</p>
<p>About greek life: yes, greek life is more present here than on many peer campuses, but it’s by no means as pervasive as many people seem to think. I never went to a single greek event on campus in 4 years and wasn’t bothered by it at all. I had several friends who were greek and for them it was just one more activity. Most of my friends weren’t involved and I never felt left out or like it dominated social life. If you happen to be the only one out of all your friends that didn’t rush, then obviously it would be a different experience. 30% of all students and 40% of eligible students (you can only rush as a sophomore) are involved in greek life, which means 60% of eligible students are not involved, 70% of the whole student body. It’s there if you want it, and for many it’s a very fulfilling and wonderful experience. If you don’t want it, no big deal. There’s no pressure either way.</p>
<p>Hmmm well that’s interesting (as far as the number of students going on Colgate programs). A couple of the Colgate programs are bigger (Washington, London) but I don’t think the Colgate programs average 20 (for instance, London art history was 12). And not all of the 24 programs are offered every year - some are offered every two years. </p>
<p>My son didn’t apply to any of the Colgate programs because none matched what he was looking for - and all of his friends went on non-Colgate programs by choice. I’m sure the stats are easy enough to get from Colgate - I’ll ask about this when I am up on campus in a couple of weeks, and post what I learn here!</p>
<p>Thanks for your insight on the greek influence on campus Lydia.</p>
<p>Is it possible for pre-med students to do a semester abroad…is there any program tailored to this? </p>
<p>Also, did you participate in any pre-orientation (the camping/hiking trips)? Do you reccomend this?</p>
<p>And what was the impact of the freshman seminar? Did you take advantage of studying something unexpected or not in your contemplated “major”. Does this seminar succeed in cementing friendships and building diverse interests?</p>
<p>Did you participate in club sports? My son has run long distance CC and track all 4 yrs of high school and is really on the fence about Colgate because he won’t be able to run track due to Div-1 level. But he could handle running Div.3 at another school which he perceives as slightly lesser ranked academically. I know there is a running club at Colgate, but it doesn’t seem like there is much rigor or competition involved. Do you know anything about it?</p>
<p>I didn’t say they averaged 20, I said that around 20 is usually the maximum. 10 is the minimum. Out of 24 trips, when around 11 or so of them have the maximum every year (7 UK trips except for art, DC, Geneva, 2 Australia trips), and the rest have somewhere between 10 and 19 people on them, 15 seems a reasonable guess at an average. I don’t think there are very many trips that alternate (China is one for sure, but Australia, Australia II, Dijon, Geneva, Japan, the 5 London trips, Manchester, NIH, San Francisco, Sante Fe, Scotland, Venice, Wales, and DC are not, I believe. Don’t know about Dominican Republic, Freiburg, India, Madrid, or West Indies for sure, but of those India is the only one that I think alternates), and if they are alternating trips, they aren’t the same years, so there’s at max probably 25-30 students less each year in that case (the trips that are every other year are not the most popular). So then 15 students on 22 trips instead of 24 to account for alternating programs would be 330, or around 47% of the class (68% of students going abroad). So 22% of the class go on non Colgate programs. Still not most, I would say.</p>
<p>Yes, around 150 or so students don’t go through Colgate programs. Your son apparently knew a disproportionate number of them. I knew I think… 2 people that went on non-Colgate study abroad, and probably 40+ people (off the top of my head) that went on Colgate programs. Just because my experience implies only 5% of students that study abroad went with non-Colgate programs doesn’t meant that’s the case.</p>
<p>funkygroove, pre-med students usually go on Australia or Wales trips - those are more science/math oriented, though it’s certainly possible to go on many other trips. If you’re pre-med and majoring in chem or bio, it’s not too difficult to minor in a language and go to Japan or something.</p>
<p>I didn’t do any pre-orientation as a first-year, though I was involved in leading WRCU’s pre-orientation program in 2007 and 2008. It can be nice to start out knowing people before everyone else shows up, as well as get a foot in the door at a student organization if you chose one of those. Some of the kids on the camping trips got back on move-in day and were a bit embarrassed to meet their new roommate after not showering for a week, but if you do the first session that wouldn’t be a problem.</p>
<p>My fsem was cryptology, which I really didn’t want, but it was a great class. I ended up taking more computer science because of it (I was a Japanese major, so it really had nothing to do with what I was intending to study). I didn’t really end up friends with many people in my fsem, more through other activities on campus. It helped ease the transition into college life and academics, and the link and advisor system was good.</p>
<p>I don’t know anything about running club, but was involved in the equestrian team, which is a club sport. It’s a good half-way point between varsity and intramural - you compete against other schools, but it doesn’t dominate your life.</p>
<p>“he won’t be able to run track due to Div-1 level” With all due respect, IS THAT WHY YOU ARE PAYING TO GO TO A HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS SCHOOL? Athletics is second, academics is first!!</p>
<p>Lydia, I will find out the #'s and post them here. Yes, my son knew a disproportionate number of students who went on non-Colgate programs (off the top of my head - and obviously I would only know a fraction of his Colgate friends - I know of 25 of his friends abroad last spring on non-Colgate programs). While I think the Colgate programs are very good, I also think they are sometimes somewhat narrow in academic focus and attract a small # of students. In any event, I’ll ask at Colgate, and post what I learn. It’s not really all that relevant to prospective students - one way or the other there are many excellent study abroad programs. (Cadence is right though that it can be an issue if you are on financial aid since your FA will not follow you abroad on a non-Colgate program - this is not the case at all colleges, as some colleges have study abroad payments go through the home school). </p>
<p>My son had a wonderful experience abroad. While he has loved Colgate he also enjoyed being on a program with students from other schools and academically it was right up his alley - one of his professors abroad continued to advise him this year on his honors thesis on a topic directly related to his study abroad experience.</p>
<p>Morrism-</p>
<p>yes, I agree academics first…but in selecting a school you are also looking at what you will call home for 4 years. You can’t just select a school by just picking the most highly ranked option. Where will you be comfortable and where will you thrive and push yourself? College is also about creating happy well rounded human beings and hopefully creative problem solvers. I feel extracurriculars and opportunities for fitness are important in building this foundation as well.</p>
<p>If you have been involved in varsity sports all year, every day in high school ; its a hard thing to drop this completely. In his case, running isn’t really a well developed club sport at Colgate. He does not fit the description of a “jock” but is more of an academic student athlete. </p>
<p>Every school he applied to except for Colgate was Division 3 sports and would have allowed him to study at great schools plus compete in running. Now that he has narrowed down to 2 choices- that is his struggle with Colgate: should he give up a passion (and one that keeps him healthy and well rounded) for a “higher ranked” academic environment (according to US New and World Report). That is what I am trying to understand- is a Colgate education really that much better than a Kenyon education? I went to a school few people are familiar with and have been very successful.</p>
<p>I think he’s got the opportunity for a terrific education at either school–Kenyon is by no means “inferior” to Colgate–it’s a truly excellent school with committed, motivated and engaged students and professors. Maybe it would be helpful to look at some of the bios of the profs in departments that interest him, and see what they’re doing for research/publication/etc. My D picked Colby over Colgate, Vassar, and Wellesley, though all three are “ranked” more highly, because she saw Colby as the school that “fit” her overall college ambitions, both academically and extra-curricularly. (And there was that study abroad/financial aid issue!)</p>