Colgate vs. Wesleyan

Colleges and Universities A-Z Colgate University
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<p>Son is looking hard at these two excellent colleges (as handle implies, D is at Vassar). Son has varsity sport (swimming) for which he's being looked at by each school and is competitive at each (despite Colgate's D1 status, his times are competitive; Wes, D3, has top level new coach and nowhere to go but up in NESCAC; both have great facilities and either experience would be superb for him), at least median if not better test scores (which may improve), > 4.0 grades, top 25% at recognized high school and will get superb recommendations. Especially with swimming, I think he's competitive for admission at either (indeed, fwiw (and I know this is but the tip of a large iceberg which I'd rather not, Titanic-like, blunder into), the latest USNWR rankings place them next to each other, Colgate moving up to 18 and Wes down to 17 (yes, I know rankings suck; yes, I know they're indispensible; yes, I know Wes' endowment is off [indeed, some accuse rankings of being merely a proxy for $$ in endowment] forcing selective non-need-blind admissions [whereas, Colgate has never been need blind]; and yes, Wes' rank at the moment is probably lower than its intrinsic rank, but then I always felt that Colgate's has always been lower than it should have been, having looked at the school for the whole time I've been a college parent, since circa 2000, i.e., two other kids; so yes I know all that stuff, as do most of you).</p>

<p>My question is: how do you compare the experience, mainly academic but also social? Both are roughly the same size and larger for a LAC, which is good. Wes has Middletown, somewhat more than Hamilton but maybe not that much. (D at Vassar exists in the V bubble and doesn't expect to do much in Po-town except that it's true that NYC is a 2-hr train ride away, neither of which is true for C or W, and esp. less so for C - I'm not sure that all schools don't have a bubble and I'm not sure the bubble is bad at all.)</p>

<p>Wes strikes me as kinda like Vassar in that no core requirements, study what you want, etc. Colgate's core (my impression) is nowhere near an actual real core (only one or two left in the entire USofA I believe, e.g., Columbia's), but has a core element. Colgate apparently grades hard to the point of some thinking they're losing out on grad/law/med school apps to places like Harvard where ridiculously more than 80% (maybe a lot more) of the class graduates with honors (at Cornell, at most 8-10%, at Columbia, 25%). Don't know re Wes. How do you think the academic experience would compare between Colgate and Wesleyan if it would compare at all? S's interest is history and other liberal arts, future possibly in law or business but could also be academic (after maturing), but very unlikely to be STEM unless something amazin' happens. </p>

<p>Socially, compare and contrast the students at Colgate vs. Wesleyan, and the campus social styles, if you would. Wes has some frats, but general style is not Greek; Colgate is still I would hazard traditionally Greek, but with (now) firm admin control. Over the long Hamilton winter, not a bad thing? And even without considering frats, what do most kids do? </p>

<p>Finally, we will need financial aid, and will likely apply ED. Neither is need blind (Wes may be only partially not need blind), but we have suffered reverses and continue to struggle. But we are committed to having S continue family tradition of first class education. And price calculator for each showed Colgate somewhat more generous with somewhat less loan amounts for S, but Wes' cap at $20K of student loans for 4 years is not so bad (if you think Wes is otherwise worth it). S also wants to swim in college, but (apart from Colgate or Lafayette) will never be D1 like, say, Stanford or USC, but he is very competitive at Colgate and in D3 (well, maybe not at Kenyon or Williams). Has narrowed choices down (don't know why, but scratched M'bury and Bowdoin and Colby and Bates and Hamilton and Haverford and thinks only serious geeks go to Swarthmore, and no midwest or Calif. schools, and liked Williams but didn't like Amherst but won't apply to either) to Colgate and
Weslayan, but they seem on surface very different. Can anyone help? The ED deadline approacheth.</p>

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<p>I will leave the parent’s viewpoint and advice to those closer to the action, so to speak, but will instead make a plug for Colgate’s swimming and diving program.</p>

<p>Firstly, head coach Fernando Canales runs a superb DI program and is, as you may know, an accomplished Olympian, coach and administrator within the movement. I trust that your son knows him and has participated in an official visit whereby he learns about the depth of the program and quality of instruction and commitment displayed by the team favor Fernando and Colgate.</p>

<p>Next is that Colgate is arguably the top “true” LAC for admissions and academic achievement in the Patriot League- if you categorize Army and Navy separately as I do- with their unique characteristics. I believe you find this distinction important, just as I did when I was applying. Then there is the point relative to the question of DI and DIII sports and the commitment mention above. I don’t doubt that DIII swimming powers can be excellent relative to their world, but DI at the level of Colgate’s expectations generally and Fernando’s practices and scheduling are at a different level. That includes the progress that freshmen attain developmentally over their 4 years. </p>

<p>I don’t know much at all about Wesleyan apart from the fact that Colgate hired Michael Sciola to head its Career Planning Center last summer. Suffice it to say that Colgate is very important to me and that it goes from strength to strength. I hope your son applies ED as I did and enrolls.</p>

<p>Best of luck. The responses that follow should be very interesting.</p>

<p>Go 'gate!</p>

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<p>@vassardad
First, I must commend you for your diligence in seeking out and interpreting the data helpful for you and your son in making an informed decision. Perhaps it’s time for your
son to make some subjective “gut” decisions. I would suggest that your son spend a weekend with a swimmer student athlete at both colleges if time permits. I recognize tha the ED timetable may make this a practical impossibility.</p>

<p>On the sports and swimming side, rather than focussing on the generalized distinctions of Div. I vs. Div. III sports, I’d drill down on the Patriot League ( PL ) [PatriotLeague.org</a> - Patriot League Official Athletic Site](<a href=“http://www.patriotleague.org/]PatriotLeague.org”>http://www.patriotleague.org/) vs. NESCAC differences and the role that C & W play within that competitive mix. The P.L. is adding Boston University and Loyola ( Md), both of which have M’s swimming teams, as full members starting in the 2013-14 school year. This brings the total to 10 teams that will compete in M’s swimming. Like the Ivies, the P.L. adheres to an academic index to assure that its student athletes are academically representative of its general student body. But, unlike either the Ivy or NESCAC schools, the P.L. schools, at the discretion of the individual schools, may offer athletic scholarships in every sport. Navy and Army as P.L. members are probably the schools with the most scholarships in M’s swimming and tend to lead the league in M’s swimming competition. Bucknell seems to do well, but probably doesn’t provide as many scholarships. Both the M’s and W’s team are coached by Fernando, but the W’s team has more stature within the P.L… The W’s team, because of title IX considerations ( balancing other M’s sports providing scholarships at Colgate ) provides more scholarships than the M’s swimming team. ( if they provide any at all ) That said, outside of Army, Navy and Bucknell, I doubt that the M’s swimming competition is that much different than some of the more competitive swimming teams at NESCAC schools. </p>

<p>However, the P.L. and Colgate in particular take their intercollegiate sports and athletics at all levels ( club, intramural ) very seriously. I don’t know how that manifests itself generally in the student culture at either school. But, I’d recommend that your son explore these differences and how it fits for him. I think the generally accepted impression is that Wesleyan has a more outwardly artsy-intellectual atmosphere ( ala Vassar ) than Colgate.</p>

<p>Colgate has extreme grade deflation so the academic competition is probably quite similar despite the differences in stereotypes. Your son may want to explore the reputations of the individual majors that currently interest him at both schools. Other distinctive Colgate offerings worth exploring are its outstanding outdoor education/adventure and broad off-campus study options. Both represent different adaptations to the unique lifestyle that Hamilton offers.</p>

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<p>Don’t be put off by so called “grade deflation.” I found Colgate to be relatively easy academically. A well prepared student can get mainly As and a few Bs. History and English classes can be particularly challenging as many papers and essays are subjectively graded and hence most students will be in B range, or a bit lower.</p>

<p>A principal difference to me is that Wes is very liberal and Colgate leans a bit to the right, so that guys wear khakis and blazers for special occassion and not many hipsters in skinny jeans on guys. These are superficial issues. If proximity to Boston and NYC is an issue Wesleyan is more convenient, but less outdoorsy and scenic.</p>

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<p>Re:Nervedoctor’s comments about it being relatively easy to get A’s and B’s at Colgate, I can report based on my son’s conversations with me that there are no easy classes at Wesleyan. Look at any of the faculty review websites and see how many Wesleyan professors are rated as being “difficult”. With Wesleyan’s president, Michael Roth, there has been a very firm emphasis on academic rigor that has intensified in the past five years.</p>

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<p>[College</a> Rankings 2012: Most Rigorous Schools (Photos) - Newsweek and The Daily Beast](<a href=“http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/galleries/2012/08/05/college-rankings-2012-most-rigorous-schools-photos.html#slide]College”>http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/galleries/2012/08/05/college-rankings-2012-most-rigorous-schools-photos.html#slide)</p>

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<p>Between Nervedoctor’s achievements and colgate88’s contribution of that link it appears that Colgate’s academic profile is on very solid ground.</p>

<p>Good luck with your college search.</p>

<p>Go 'gate!</p>

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<p>I agree with Gatetime, you need to make time for one more visit. I think the schools are different enough that he will definitely prefer one over the other. Wesleyan certainly is more artsy and is in a small city - downtown is only 2 blocks away. Colgate is beautiful but not near too much. </p>

<p>If top level academics are what you want, then it is time to have your son look at the exact courses for his major and the research interests of the faculty and see which place is better for him. He may be able to adapt to the differences in culture between the two schools, but he still needs to have the right majors and classes for him.</p>

<p>Lastly, the financial aid is known to you at Vassar so it may be a prudent choice for ED due to financial aid reasons. He could be a ‘big fish’ in the pool at Vassar and some of the Liberty league teams like RPI and Rochester are very strong so he will have plenty of competition. </p>

<p>I hope he finds the perfect fit for him. All the best to you both.</p>