<p>The college counseling office at our son’s school is of the opinion that past a certain point (well below CC standards!), re-taking the SAT and ACT is a not a good use of time. They emphasize that standardized test scores are only one piece of the puzzle and are only used to indicate to a college that you can do the work; that’s all you need to prove, no chasing an uber score. They like to see kids take both the SAT and ACT to determine which test feels best to them, and two takes of the more comfortable test should enable a student to present their best aptitude, then it’s on to other parts of the application. Our son took each test once and his CC said, “He’s done; he can do the work at every school on his list, let’s move on.”</p>
<p>Something else I have wanted to say in this thread:</p>
<p>The big argument for the relevance at all of the SAT I and ACT as admissions criteria is that the correlate with freshman academic performance, especially when combined with high school academic performance. The correlation is not especially strong, but it’s clearly there.</p>
<p>Does anyone think that by improving his SAT or ACT score, he will actually improve his grades as a college freshman? Of course not! Getting a higher score on the SAT may mean that there is a higher statistical likelihood of good college grades, but in each college course an individual student is going to get the grades that his intelligence and effort earn, based on the particular professor’s standards. The standardized test score won’t play into it at all.</p>
<p>It’s not quite the same for admissions, of course, because the test scores are considered, at least as a gating issue and probably more. But it the end, test scores will be about the least distinctive data on any student. Everything else will be richer and more nuanced: performance in high school curriculum, outside interests and activities, recommendations, essays, background and culture. So it stands to reason that those things are what will really make a difference when it comes down to differentiating among individuals, not a couple of points on a 36-point scale.</p>
<p>Re lookingforward #137: It is an interesting question whether it matters where the idea came from, for a student (“Fred”) to experience the extras. I think that most people would be uncomfortable with the situation where a student gets an uncommon idea from a college consultant who charges $20,000-$30,000, even if the student then spends a great deal of time and effort implementing the idea. I would be. Few people can afford an extra edge of that type. </p>
<p>And yet, to the extent that the student is transformed by the experience, the student is no doubt better for it, and probably more desirable to the colleges. The experience becomes authentically part of the student’s background. Here I am not speaking of things like parentally facilitated fund-raising for a charity, where the student’s contribution to the effort is “not much.” I’m talking about things the student really does.</p>
<p>So, suppose instead that the student got the idea from a family friend, or from a librarian at the high school, or from a Teach for America teacher, or from the student’s pastor. I am much more comfortable with this, because it doesn’t require unusual financial resources. But this still seems different to me from a student-generated idea. But then, how does one really determine who originated the idea? It’s probably unclear in a lot of cases–and perhaps deliberately so.</p>
<p>Here’s another issue: I consider myself semi-informed about college admissions. But I have absolutely no idea what suggestions might come from a college consultant who charges $20,000-$30,000. I don’t think they are writing books about it, because that would put them out of business. The advice that one can get on CC tends to be good as far as it goes, but I have the feeling that a lot is left out.</p>
<p>An earlier (but recent) post referred to the differences among Brown, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Columbia, and Dartmouth. I have some vague ideas of the differences among them, but to be honest, my ideas are very superficial. I suspect that there are some differences that it would be hard for a bright high-school student to glean from publicly available information.</p>
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<p>It would depend on what information you are trying to get out of it… First, could anybody do what they just did? That is, does this demonstrate a talent. Not everybody can be elected of student government; almost everybody can found an activity and/or organize a fundraiser as long as you aren’t a complete hermit. If they actually raised an obscene amount of money and didn’t rely on a parental network to do so, that assessment might change. It’s good that a person ran the mile regularly, but if they are running it in 8 minutes, I’m not so impressed. I’ll assume that others could have done the same if they had wanted to. Also, if </p>
<p>Secondly, what qualities outside of talent are you trying to assess? Maybe it is the ability to juggle many balls in the air (metaphorically), or how persistent you are. Are there other ways to demonstrate these qualities which actually intersect with the development of a talent. In high school, I think the development of fundamental skills and talents should be prioritized, since they are not in the workforce yet. </p>
<p>I know that admissions people think they can tell an essay that shows the student’s authentic voice from one that has been crafted by adults–but I just don’t buy it. How do they know they can tell? Why should this kind of ghost writer be any less skillful than other ghost writers? Now, I’m not talking about an essay that conveys impressive information about a student–I think those could make a big difference, especially if it’s info that doesn’t appear elsewhere in the application.</p>
<p>I guess I would say that one myth–or wishful belief–is that by scrubbing up one specific aspect of a student’s application, significant weaknesses in other aspects can be overcome. That doesn’t seem to be very true at the most selective schools, unless that specific aspect is a powerful hook.</p>
<p>I don’t know where you guys live, but in my neck of the woods, the pricey counselors are used to take a kid who seems destined for a directional state U or community college and transforming them into Adelphi or Sacred Heart or Fairfield U admits. Or taking a smart kid with the kind of stats that get someone into Villanova or Seton Hall- but because of a disciplinary/run-in with the law, an outside professional is needed to come up with a list of schools which aren’t going to scrutinize the infraction too closely. A very recent case (and the parents are still upset)- kid is at Binghamton. Fine school for the kid. Nice academic fit. Parents feel like they got ripped off- who hires a private, pricey counselor to get their kid into Binghamton??? Were they really expecting a counselor to get the kid into Yale just because they wrote a big check?</p>
<p>These counselors all advertise their ability to get kids into Dartmouth and Columbia- but since I know these kids, the kids would have either gotten in there anyway, or at least gotten into a peer institution.</p>
<p>Counselors aren’t taking kids with mid 600 SAT scores and magically editing the essay that gets them into Brown. The magic is in convincing the parents that their kid would be miserable at Brown and getting them to apply to schools which are likely admits. And then polishing the essay, figuring out a nicer way to describe “what I learned from getting kicked out of private school and dumped into public school where they had to take me because my parents live here”.</p>
<p>@ Hunt “admissions people think they can tell an essay that shows the student’s authentic voice from one that has been crafted by adults–but I just don’t buy it.”</p>
<p>There is a flaw in their logic here. There are some essays that they read where you can tell that the student had help. Based on that, they congratulate themselves that they can always tell which students had help and which didn’t. </p>
<p>In the in-between space are students who write their own essays, but the essays receive a lot of direction, editing and comments from family, teachers, and consultants. It is actually their words, but with a lot of support. I think this is very difficult to identify in most cases. As you point out about ghostwriters, the more expert the person helping, the more difficult it will be to detect the help. </p>
<p>
And thank goodness it does! My son has always had a bumpy GPA, both in high school and college, but if he gets a foot in the door everyone is really impressed with him. I’m pretty convinced that his high school recommendations and his essays are what got him into the colleges that accepted him. And it’s likely his history teacher spoke about his writing ability. He’s got a great internship now, thanks to what was on his resume. His Tufts GPA was too low, but if you counted in all the A’s from his year abroad, it thankfully just got over the threshold for most internships.</p>
<p>I know from looking at our high school Naviance that high GPAs and scores were correlated with each other, and there seemed to be more of a GPA threshold than a score threshold as far as acceptances were concerned. (My younger son was in the very iffy zone on his GPA for the reaches that accepted him.)</p>
<p>Blossom is right.<br>
Many of these folks are managing expectations. My wealthy friends who spent the big bucks for 3 kids, were delighted with the “fit” the pro found- 3 colleges we never discuss on CC. Happy kids. Satisfied families.</p>
<p>About "more. First off, lots of these stats/rigor qualified kids ARE doing a little more. Enough kids to build a class. I just can’t say all of them or most of them get it. Their world, to-date, has been hs, what works in hs, what brings recognition there, what makes for proud parents.</p>
<p>Yes, many get encouragement from non-paid sources. It’s not about the complexity of projects or how hard it is to get that opp. And more schools (and not just the elite preps) are also fostering this, one way or another. (Yup, even those under-performing hs.) </p>
<p>Hunt, these professionals- too many (even what we may call big names) don’t have recent admissions experience, too many never worked in admissions. They have not seen thousands of apps. They may not know how application patterns shift, even year to year. How do they really know some magic formula?</p>
<p>Btw, it is good to get editorial support. The right sort. </p>
<p>@Hunt:</p>
<ol>
<li>How many of the very most selective schools are there?</li>
<li>Yes, I’m sure adcoms can be “fooled”. The private elites are also all around 50% full-pay. Draw your own conclusions.</li>
</ol>
<p>@QuantMech:
Research, research. You can glean a lot from results threads here on CC and reading stuff that you find on the web.</p>
<p>You then wouldn’t make a mistake that I saw one girl make: good but not great stats and ECs except for a minor sport where she excels (which some schools are varsity and many have clubs, of varying quality and desire to win, in). She applied ED to a school that doesn’t even have a club for her sport (but is DivI in many other sports) but did not apply to schools on a similar prestige level who are varsity or have top clubs for her sport. At some schools, her sport could have been a hook or at least be of notable interest. The school that she applied ED to likely cared less about her sporting achievements; they already had plenty of athletes and weren’t going to admit an athlete in a sport that they didn’t compete in when she brought nothing else to the table.</p>
<p>@quantmech In my opinion, marysidney has made a really important observation with her remark in #106, “you are left with handfuls of sand in establishing what is a school that is likely to accept your kid.” I think that expresses the frustration and uncertainty for many of the CC parents, who have offspring who might or might not get into a “top” school.</p>
<p>This is really the most important issue. It is stressful, and frustrating, and wastes huge amounts of time. This is driven by the fact that by being as opaque as possible, they drive up their application numbers and that improves the schools rank. So they are rewarded for being ambiguous. </p>
<p>While expensive consultants are hired to give a student an advantage, they often do the opposite. That is because they want to show high success rates, and that means getting the student into one of their top 2 or 3 choices. To do that, they often try to convince the student not to apply to the very top schools. If the student does not have a hard hook, convincing them to apply to slightly less competitive schools will raise their success rate. </p>
<p>For the parent or student who is grasping at hands full of sand, I would strongly recommend that they begin by looking at the Naviance results for their school. What percentage of students with your gpa and SAT or ACT score were admitted to each particular college. If they were all admitted or all rejected, you have your answer. In between, you can see the shifting odds. The trick is to ignore the average gpa and average SAT for admitted students that many people focus on. That can be very misleading. At some schools, virtually all of the above the average students are admitted. However, at an Ivy or MIT or Stanford, students who are above that average may only be accepted 10 or 20% of the time.</p>
<p>Once you have a rough probability based on Naviance, you need to be honest about extracurriculars. How many national, state, and regional awards do you have? What makes you stand out. Are my ECs really very good? </p>
<p>Most students and parents do not realize how impressive the accomplishments of other students are (why would they). A trip through the results threads of students admitted to the school you are considering can be eye-opening. Be honest about how you stack up compared to those students. </p>
<p>It is also important to adjust for URM status, whether the student is Male or Female, and the specific college they are applying to, if that is applicable. </p>
<p>In the end, you will still not be completely certain about whether you will be admitted to a top school, but you can make a good assessment of your chances with a little work and willingness to be honest. </p>
<p>I would also add that what is helpful in chance me threads is not the opinion, but the reasons. If the can point out a strength or weakness that you had not focussed on, that is helpful. Random opinions with idiots mixed in with knowledgeable opinions are just confusing.</p>
<p>Much- I actually think the schools are reasonably transparent- people just don’t want to see the data.</p>
<p>Brown used to post detailed information about its admits. Anyone with more than a fourth grade math education could quickly see that below a certain score, and if you weren’t Val, Sal, or otherwise academically distinguished, your likelihood of getting admitted went down very quickly. And yet- in all my years interviewing HS seniors for Brown, when I’d ask at the end “do you have any other questions for me” I’d inevitably get asked a version of “Chance me?”.</p>
<p>Listen kid- your SAT scores are in the bottom quartile, your GPA is 3.8 at a school which has so much grade inflation that last year they announced 12 valedictorians, you aren’t taking the most challenging curriculum possible, and you’re a terrific tennis player who serves dinner once a month at a homeless shelter. You want to go to Brown because of the open curriculum since you never want to take another literature class again, so the lack of a core appeals to you.</p>
<p>Do you need me telling you that you aren’t getting in? Wouldn’t a quick look at the stats page tell you that AND save your parents 75 bucks???</p>
<p>I doubt that when peers review academic programs that they care about a reduction in admissions percentages or about yield. When big funding sources review, I don’t think one of their qualifications is US News. If Harvard quit telling how many apps and %, they would still be a school with a pattern of wants and needs- and high standards.</p>
<p>I do believe one of the frustrations is that kids and families are not looking into what the colleges say. (Even here, some question the value.) They assume, they believe other kids on CC, they go with their own hs status. That’s not really the thinking these colleges look for, regardless of stats. Most Chance Me’s are answered by kids with zero experience. How can they give good reasons? </p>
<p>What exactly is a top college… is it a top 10 school? top 20 school?..??</p>
<p>@lookingforward “Most Chance Me’s are answered by kids with zero experience. How can they give good reasons?”</p>
<p>Often they can’t. Their ideas are prompts that have to be considered. Things to think about. </p>
<p>I think that people who are concerned about packaged or ghost-written essays don’t really get what makes an essay or short answer stand out for the admission staff. When I used to review essays for CC students, I saw a few “dynamite” essays… they were never anything an adult would have advised a student to write about. A polished essay and perfect grammar is not what wins over the ad coms. Nor is the reporting of experiences in the way an adult thinks they ought to be reported. </p>
<p>The best essays are “risk” essays to some degree. Somewhere on the planet there is probably a college consultant who will push a client toward taking a riskier path, including a risky choice of essay topic --but I don’t think that’s what most do. After all, their real client is the parent who is paying their exorbitant fee, and parents aren’t going to be all that happy if the counselor directs the student applying to Stanford to write an essay about not picking up her dirty socks off the floor. (To use an example of a successful CC-daughter applicant who managed to drive her father nuts during the admission season by doing things “wrong”).</p>
<p>The essays are important because they provide a window into the mind and personality of the student. They convert the applicant into a human being instead of just a set of numbers. Colleges need to see more than numbers. </p>
<p>You can’t really manufacture the qualities that make an essay or some LOR’s shine-- and it may well be that the students who are retaking their SAT’s in the hopes of raising a 2250 up past the 2300 mark wouldn’t be capable of producing that essay no matter how much effort they put into it. After all, they are spending their time practicing figuring out the “right” choice for nuances of grammar, the “right” choice for interpreting a line of poetry or the author’s intent in a passage. How is that student going to know or figure out that the key to a good essay is originality? </p>
<p>The advantage of writing that great essay is that it captures the attention of the human being reading the application in a way that numbers can’t. No one is going to remember a kid’s test scores at the end of the day… but they might remember the essay. </p>
<p>^ My D’s small prep school has a tradition in which each graduating student presents a farewell essay they’ve written about their time at the school. Most write about making connections, challenging themselves, or other such standard topics. Each year I can predict with reasonable accuracy the topic of about half the essays. They’re all well written and well presented but not particularly memorable. The one that stands out from the multiple years I’ve attended the farewell speeches was about toe thumbs. Yup, the student wrote about having toe thumbs. It was witty and original and spoke of how she saw herself as a member of her family and the school community. Best of all, her voice shined through. What school consultant would ever think to advise a student to use this topic? </p>
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<p>So what you are assuming here is that people who are stars in the humanities will produce an essay with resonates with admissions committee. And if they have LOR’s which say that they are a total star in the humanities, that their college essay was not a problem assuming that they put effort into it.</p>
<p>STEM kids can write great essays. Humanities kids are not necessarily better writers. In general, too many kids do write per the hs English class formula or with “thesis statements” or other ways they think impress adcoms because, after all, they satisfy high school teachers. (Just review a CC essay or two and you can’t miss this.) Some most memorable essays were not meant to intellectually impress, at all. But they strike you with the kid’s perceptiveness, balance, other good qualities. Many sad tales of woe fall flat, because that’s all that comes through. Lots of kids write about first grade (topics that show nothing of hs skills, much less college.) Bucking the system (something a few kids are guaranteed to think will show cleverness) can backfire fast. Etc. </p>
<p>My STEM kid wrote an essay that showed he had a sense of humor and said forthrightly he’d rather write a program than an essay. I thought it gave a very good sense of who he is. It wasn’t a brilliant essay, but I thought it was pretty good for a computer nerd. Younger son felt strongly that he had to really stand out essay-wise because his grades were iffy and his scores lopsided. He also showed his funny side with a bit of self deprecating humor in his main essay and he wrote a couple of “Why ---- college?” essays that began with all the reasons he didn’t like them.</p>