College Admissions Reform Proposals

Parents Forum
1

<p>I just finished Deresiewicz's "Excellent Sheep" and recommend it. Of note are his suggestions for college admissions reform, as was done in the 1930s. He proposes moving beyond what he calls the "hereditary meritocracy" and remove some of the distortions that the application process causes in the lives of students. I do not agree with all of these but hope that schools can move beyond the current model.</p>

<ol>
<li>Base affirmative action on class instead of race</li>
<li>End preference for legacies and athletes</li>
<li>Weight SAT for socioeconomic factors</li>
<li>End "resume stuffing" by limiting the number of ECs a student can list</li>
<li>Place value on service jobs that lower-income students often take in high school</li>
<li>"Refuse to be impressed by any experience or opportunity that was enabled by parental wealth."</li>
<li>Stop cooperating with USNWR</li>
</ol>

2

<p>Oh please. This author has been hashed over extensively on this site. </p>

<p>And FYI…any college could choose to do the above…and many do.</p>

3

<p>As long as donations from wealthy alumni are an important source of revenue, #1 through #6 will not happen at the highly selective private universities in question.</p>

4

<ol>
<li>Olympic gold medal in an expensive sport - state school for you.</li>
</ol>

5

<p>I think the simplest thing that could be done is to limit students to, say, ten colleges when they apply. Maybe a flat application fee of $300 for ten applications. That would reduce some of the crazy numbers games.</p>

6

<p>I’m sure Harvard would have no problem accepting Princeton legacies. Or vice versa. </p>

<p>The whole “legacies are not capable” thing is silly. The Ivy League started using the SAT seriously as an admissions criteria in, what, the mid '60s? According to The Chosen, many family legacies were ended at that point, if the sons didn’t have the scores. So for the last two generations, they’ve been selected on the basis of the SAT, grades, and interviews, and they’ve been marrying each other. </p>

<p>Sure, you could stop giving legacies preference. That wouldn’t alter their success in elite college admissions. It might change the distribution a bit. Taken as a whole, the Ivy legacy children would win just as many spots at the elite colleges as before. </p>

<p>As to socioeconomic factors, I’ve read of the low income strivers Hoxby has studied. Many don’t apply to elite colleges. I wonder to what extent geography plays a role? If you’re in the midwest, you may well prefer to attend a flagship state university close to home, rather than head off to Chicago or the coasts. </p>

<p>I’ve noticed a trend among my friends, that their children are asserting they want to stay close to home for college. I don’t think this comes from the adults, but rather from the children. There seem to be fewer children eager to go out of state for college than there used to be. </p>

7

<p>“Sure, you could stop giving legacies preference. That wouldn’t alter their success in elite college admissions. It might change the distribution a bit. Taken as a whole, the Ivy legacy children would win just as many spots at the elite colleges as before.”</p>

<p>I must say I find this claim pretty implausible, and unsupported by any evidence. I’m sure <em>many</em> ivy legacies would get in to an ivy without any preference, but to say that they all would? Nonsense.</p>

8

<p>Not all ivy legacies get in now. I did not say they all would. Read closely, please.</p>

9

<p>Yes I didn’t write that as clearly as I should have, what I should have written is this:</p>

<p>I’m sure <em>many</em> ivy legacies (who were admitted under the present system) would get in to an ivy without any preference, but to say that they all would? (ie, no ivy legacies would be shut out of the ivy league who are today admitted.) Nonsense.</p>

10

<p>As many does not mean precisely the same students. If 15% of all Ivy legacies enroll at Ivy and elite schools, doing away with preferences would not decrease that percentage. It might change the distribution. For example, Princeton legacies believe they have an advantage at Princeton. If they apply early action to another college, they may fear losing that advantage. ( I believe Penn states outright legacy will only be considered in the early round.) Remove the legacy preference, they may apply to different elite colleges. On the other hand, those colleges may not worry as much about yielding that Princeton legacy.</p>

<p>For all we know, more legacies might be admitted. Full-pay applicants with high SAT scores, who have attended good schools, have competitive applications and good college advisors, especially knowledgeable parents, do well in today’s college application process.</p>

11

<p>

@Periwinkle I think that you are onto something that Deresiewicz may not considering. I worked for a few summers with very “low income strivers” and they mostly headed to Midwest flagships or directionals due to finances and because they were close to their communities and extended families and not eager to move to a coast. I think that Deresiewicz is also concerned with LMC and MC students who haven’t had the trips to Machu Picchu, internships at Dad’s friend’s company, and years of SAT prep. A very bright and interesting kid from a lower income should not be pushed aside by a UMC kid just because he worked at Target over breaks instead of having exotic experiences. </p>

12

<p>"If 15% of all Ivy legacies enroll at Ivy and elite schools, doing away with preferences would not decrease that percentage. "</p>

<p>But that’s exactly what I’m questioning - where’s the evidence? Speculation is not evidence.</p>

13

<p>"If 15% of all Ivy legacies enroll at Ivy and elite schools, doing away with preferences would not decrease that percentage. "</p>

<p>But that’s exactly what I’m questioning - where’s the evidence? Speculation is not evidence.</p>

14

<p>Studies by Espenshade and Hurwitz have show that legacies on average have a 3 to 7 times greater chance of being admitted to an elite college as compared to non-legacies. The Dean of Admissions at Harvard has stated that Harvard legacies have a 4 time greater admission rate then non-legacies.</p>

15

<p>“Sure, you could stop giving legacies preference. That wouldn’t alter their success in elite college admissions. It might change the distribution a bit. Taken as a whole, the Ivy legacy children would win just as many spots at the elite colleges as before.”</p>

<p>I must say I find this claim pretty implausible, and unsupported by any evidence. I’m sure <em>many</em> ivy legacies would get in to an ivy without any preference, but to say that they all would? Nonsense."</p>

<p>It’s plausible because the H admit rate for Y and P legacies is the same as the H admit rate for H legacies, which means that in general, these legacies are better accomplished than the applicant pool at large - not surprising, as they are often wealthier, have savvy parents, and “smart genes.” So sure, even if you stopped giving legacies preference, it would just change the distribution but it wouldn’t alter the incidence. </p>

16

<p>Reread post #2. Its on the mark. Money is important ans alum contributions are a part of the picture to many schools.</p>

17

<p>@Swimkidsdad‌ - Legacies do have a higher admit rate, but it’s not just due to legacy status. A recent survey of incoming freshman at Harvard showed legacies had higher average SAT scores (2296) than the rest of the class (2237). We know nothing about the rest of their applications, but this does suggest that higher legacy admit rates are at least partially driven by a more qualified applicant pool. @Pizzagirl - It would be interesting to know the HYP legacy cross-admit rates.</p>

18

<p>It’s been posted on CC before, but I don’t have a link handy. </p>

19

<p>“It’s plausible because the H admit rate for Y and P legacies is the same as the H admit rate for H legacies,”</p>

<p>Hurwictz study suggest this is not true.</p>

<p>“Legacies do have a higher admit rate, but it’s not just due to legacy status.”</p>

<p>Hurwictz study looks at the admit rates for the same student at both their legacy school and non legacy school.</p>

<p>“A recent survey of incoming freshman at Harvard showed legacies had higher average SAT scores (2296) than the rest of the class (2237).”</p>

<p>This study is self reported data with an overall 70% response rate which is less reliable than the data used by Hurwictz</p>

<p>From The Chronicle of Higher Education:</p>

<p>”A researcher at Harvard University recently examined the impact of legacy status at 30 highly selective colleges and concluded that, all other things being equal, legacy applicants got a 23.3-percentage-point increase in their probability of admission. If the applicants’ connection was a parent who attended the college as an undergraduate, a “primary legacy,” the increase was 45.1-percentage points."</p>

<p>“Mr. Hurwitz’s research found that legacy students, on average, had slightly higher SAT scores than nonlegacies. But he was able to control for that factor, as well as athlete status, gender, race, and many less-quantifiable characteristics. He also controlled for differences in the selectivity of the colleges.”</p>

<p>“He was able to do so by focusing on the large number of high-school students (47 percent) who submitted applications to more than one of the colleges in the sample. A given applicant’s characteristics, like the wealth of their family or strength of their high school, wouldn’t vary from college to college. But their legacy status would, and so too might their admissions outcomes. (Mr. Hurwitz also ran an analysis that showed that students who applied to multiple colleges were representative of the overall pool.)”</p>

<p>“The legacy advantage varies depending on what SAT range an applicant falls in. Below are the percentage-point increases in admissions probability for three different types of legacies.”</p>

<p>SAT Score Any Legacy Primary Legacy Secondary Legacy</p>

<p>1600 29.8 43.2 21<br>
1550-1590 30.2 49.1 16.1<br>
1500-1540 29.1 47.5 19
1450-1490 28.6 50.3 16.4<br>
1400-1440 25.7 44.2 16.6<br>
1350-1390 21.1 41.2 13.3<br>
1300-1340 21.4 41.8 13.5<br>
1250-1290 17.5 33.7 12.3 </p>

20

<p>Did he include the effect of Early Action/Decision programs? Is the study available to read for free somewhere?</p>

<p>I doubt students who applied to multiple colleges were representative of the overall legacy pool. Let’s see. You apply early to Harvard, as a Harvard legacy. You get in. Do you submit any other applications? Why would you? </p>