Lottery, at that point, would not shape the class. It might yield too much of this and only a pinch of that.
I don’t pretend the instutional needs aren’t tough. Geo diversity, gender balance and filling various majors matter to the colleges. As it is, some parts of the country or some majors dominate the applicant pool Imagine the class being so lopsided.
To me, the solution isn’t to call “Unfair!” It starts with accepting the reality that there are up to 20 kids applying for each seat. Do what you can to truly match. Put that thought into your choices during hs, your research into your targets, your presentation on the app. Then if a finalist, your odds are 50-50, you get the nod or not. Beats dreaming. Or getting bent out of shape that there are other highly competitive kids in the pool. I told mine to do the best they could, as savvily as they could, and that the final decisions were in the adcoms’ hands, not ours. They could focus on their part and be satisfied with their own efforts, when they hit Submit.
@lookingforward I couldn’t agree more. I think the problem is we need more parents like you telling their kids what you (and I) tell mine. There’s only so much you can do and you can’t take it too personally when you are talking about schools, like you said, where there are 20 kids or so for each spot (or even 5 kids…depending on what your “reach” is).
And we need to make our children realize that there are so many great schools out there that can offer you just as much, or maybe even more of a chance to shine.
If you don’t get into Harvard and you end up at Tufts, you will be just fine as Tufts is a great school…and if you don’t end up at Tufts and you end up at BU, same thing…at the end of the day is there really so much of a difference in the caliber of these schools? Students are graduating from all of them doing amazing things…and if Harvard truly made a mistake by not accepting you, then go kill it at Tufts and make great opportunities for yourself. The opportunities will still be there at these “lesser” schools.
The New York Times has decided to tiptoe around the big “unfairness” elephant in the room: genetic advantage. It’s a bit of a pollyanna-ish piece - of course, this is the NYT and they are now being tasked with conditioning the public for what is coming - but it is telling that the NYT is even reporting this.
Many posters on here go on and on about how income predicts college success, but even at this relatively early stage of research, a relatively simple genetic test will do as good a job predicting college graduation as income. If you think about it, the test is even better, as there will be some low-polygenic but wealthy students who will be shuffled through a college system that is in many ways easier than high school used to be, while some high-polygenic poor students will be thwarted by circumstance from even attending college. I am certain that embryo selection for intelligence is literally right around the corner, and frankly I would not be surprised if it is happening right now in certain limited circles.
The opinion piece is well worth reading and pondering imo. Just ignore the pollyanna.
Very little is predetermined other than say a genetic disease or something that exists in the embryo and then at birth. Thats not to say that being a member of the Lucky Sperm Club doesn’t make it easier to be/do something. And LSC membership can mean inherited wealth, parental prestige or power, athletic talent etc
I agree that very little is predetermined in terms of what you will achieve, but lots of things are predetermined in terms of what you will not achieve. A 160 IQ does not guarantee that you will get into Harvard. An 80 IQ guarantees that you won’t get into Harvard.
This is the line from the article that I think is the most relevant to this thread:
“We can’t change someone’s genes, but we can try to change how she grows up.”
I would argue that “college admissions” is part of how someone “grows up” and therefore would say it’s ok to utilize “holistic” admission policies (which is what many seem to think is the “unfair” part) as our way of attempting to change how some people grow up. If the kids with the better genes are destined for success anyway, it shouldn’t matter if they don’t get into their top choice school. They will still get in somewhere great if they are that gifted and end up just fine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/23/science/genes-education.html (linked from the previously linked opinion) says that “The newly discovered gene variants account for just a fraction of the differences in education observed between groups of people. Environmental influences, which may include family wealth or parental education, together play a bigger role.”
Both the article and the opinion also note that the genetic differences in question did not explain differences among African Americans.
The good news is there are many outstanding schools where one can receive an excellent education. All of the highly selective schools and state U honor programs will be full of very smart kids. It’s not about fairness. There is no such thing. Everyone needs to relax. If your kid got really good grades / test scores and had meaningful ECs, wrote a good essay, etc., they will get in to a fine school.
I always thought our kid should do the activities that he wanted, and if he does that, there should be a great, good or decent college for a kid like him. I think it’s a big mistake to influence a kid to think along the line of “what activities should I pursue to get into HYPSM or Berkeley or UCLA or Duke etc.?” Our kid quit plenty of activities (athletics) and had zero musical activities and almost no student body rep or debate activities; and he won zero regional or national competitions in anything, and he only did the activities and took classes he wanted to take (and therefore took stats instead of Calculus BC and no AP Chem), but he still got into Stanford. And if he didn’t, no big deal, he had Berkeley or an OOS Honors College with merit money waiting for him. I even happily signed school absence slips so he could attend outside HS conferences at a nearby location and sleep over for the conference which appealed to him.
You got one life to live, which means you have to do what you want to do. If this is not good enough for some colleges, good riddance!
Our kid did, however, try to give a very clear idea of what kind of person he was and what were important to him so the colleges will be able to accept or deny based on the actual person he was.
@Canuckguy Do you how small the ib and consulting world is relative to global business. And they are pikers compared to tech and heavy industrial auto energy etc and many other . and big law and to some degree consulting are a reflection of your law school or grad school. IB out of college is a small sliver of the business opportunity. If that’s what you want go for it. But stop the myths. It’s not Wall Street 2 year training programs or the coal mine. Good lord.
And also don’t forget who pays the bankers and lawyers. It’s the leaders in the industries I mention above. And check out the s and p 500 and see how many got there undergrad at an ivy. And don’t confuse all of the hbs Wharton and Stanford mba grads who attended the executive programs. Undergrad.
220 different schools in total. That’s pretty interesting. TOp Ivy entries plus Stanford About the same amount as penn state
UW ND and West Point combined.
Here’s the top ten. Let’s use Fortune 500 as corporate size and influence.
Doug McMillon (Wal-Mart Stores) - University of Arkansas (BS), University of Tulsa (MBA)
Rex Tillerson (Exxon Mobil) - University of Texas at Austin (BS)
John S. Watson (Chevron) - University of California, Davis (BA),
Warren E. Buffett (Berkshire Hathaway) - University of Nebraska (BS), D
Tim Cook (Apple) - Auburn University (BS),
Greg C. Garland (Phillips 66) - Texas A&M University (BS)
Mary Barra (General Motors) - General Motors Institute/Kettering University (BS), S
Mark Fields (Ford Motor) - Rutgers University (BA),
Jeff Immelt (General Electric) - Dartmouth College (BA),
Joe Gorder (Valero Energy) - University of Missouri-St. Louis (BA), Our Lady of the Lake University (MBA)
Only one ivy. How about those public unis. Kicking butt and taking names 7 out of 10
And don’t think this any knock on the ivies. They are the tops in so many areas of study. It’s just the ivy or bust view of the world isn’t the reality.
Well, your IQ won’t appear on your app. Only what you did accomplish and your thnking (in choices made and how you present.) What you DID with what was dealt you.
I think many have a sort of white bread/test heavy notion of intelligence and forget there are many sorts of drives and smarts. That guy in a job or SES you don’t covet may be one smart cookie in what he does do. It takes courage and savvy to pull onesself up. (So don’t assume a college admit is an unearned gift, in holistic, some sort of noblesse oblige.)
@websensation I think your son did a lot right. But most think of Stanford as stem strong. When one speaks of limiting ECs or alternative choices, it could confuse some stem wannabes. Plus your son did have some wise and notable activities that did relate to his hoped for major, iirc.