college admissions with 2 years Latin/ 2 years Spanish?

Parents Forum
1

<p>When DS started HS, he enrolled in Latin because the school's Spanish program was weak and the Latin program was strong. Now, midway through his Sophomore year, he is regretting his decision. DS hasn't clicked with the (only) Latin teacher and didn't pay enough attention during the first-year grammar lessons. Plus, the school's Spanish program is sounding (marginally) better. </p>

<p>I know that colleges usually prefer kids to take a single language for at least three years, but I am inclined to go alone with his request to change languages next year. DS is a very strong student, but Latin is wearing him (and his GPA) down. He thinks that "starting over" with a new language would be refreshing. Would this be crazy from a college admissions standpoint? My sense is that he might be applying to some "top 20" LACs, plus UCs, and maybe (as a reach) Stanford . . . Finally, I know that taking Spanish over the summer would be good (to give him 3 years of one language), but he is pretty busy over the summer with other activities and I know this wouldn't be easy. Any thoughts?</p>

2

<p>Getting accepted and staying at Stanford or a top 20 LAC won't be easy. They have so many applicants that they can pick and choose for each spot. It bothers me (Spanish teacher here) when a kid drops a class just because of GPA. If your S is good enough for Stanford or a top school, then he should be good enough to get his Latin grade up. Bonding with the teacher has nothing to do with it. We have kids dropping classes all the time because of lower GPA, and historically these kids may have gotten into college, but staying in...? What concerns me most is the "this wouldn't be easy" comment. Either he wants it and is willing to do what it takes, or he doesn't. There are so many kids willing to do what it takes - lose sleep, give up something else. Best bet is to let him do what he wants and he will wind up where he should, be it Stanford, Amherst, or your local state U, which could happen no matter what he does about foreign language, since the app process is so fraught with uncertainty and surprises.</p>

3

<p>I have seen kids who have gotten into schools with a 2/2 split, but every counselor I know really pushes for 3 years of one language and even 4. It would depend on what his interest is. Call a few schools that you like that you think your son would like and ask admissions how a 2/2 split is regarded by them.</p>

4

<p>Ejr, sometimes a conflict with a teacher can be a big problem. My older son did not get along with a teacher (yes, it was mainly his fault), and the problem worsened with time. This was not problem he had--in fact this was an isolated case. The teacher showed extreme pettiness in how she handled the situation, and after trying to work a few things out, he just avoided having her which worked very well. Now, had this been an issue with multiple people, I can see that the switch tactic would not work, but sometimes the fault does lie in a teacher, and who wants to try to get that resolved in a school? Not worth it. </p>

<p>As for languages, my son is currently enjoying Latin in highschool after suffering with Spanish since kindergarten. He does not seem to have the ear and tongue for languages, but in the written version, he is golden. Conversely, I have a son who seems to be a natural in learning to speak and understand languages. He picks them up much more quickly than he deserves. For him, the points he would get from the speaking and understanding part would help whereas there is little of that in Latin. Spanish would be better for him in his case. I am horrible in foreign languages, particularly learning to speak and understand, wheras I can read any language I have studied much better than the years studied should give. </p>

<p>So a switch could be beneficial.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
As for languages, my son is currently enjoying Latin in highschool after suffering with Spanish since kindergarten. He does not seem to have the ear and tongue for languages, but in the written version, he is golden.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>S did both Latin and Spanish at the same time (having started Spanish in 7th grade). He enjoyed Latin more because he did not have to try for the correct accent; he also enjoyed the more logical structure of Latin. Although he took Spanish to the 4th year level and Latin only to the 3rd year, he did better on the language placement test with Latin than with Spanish.</p>

6

<p>Just to clarify: DS is a very hardworking student, musician, and athlete. Adding another class is not possible, given the academic program he is in. If he dropped Latin, it would be simply because he is not happy with the class and would like a "do over" with another language. Happiness is worth a greak deal, but DS doesn't want to seriously mess up his college chances.</p>

7

<p>Mom, There are two separate issues here, what you need to get in and what you need to get out.</p>

<p>I don’t know of any colleges that have a carved in stone language requirement as part of their admissions policy. There may be some, but among the 30 or so colleges that my son researched, none had a black and white requirement. Most, if not all, however, listed language as a recommendation, often mentioning 3-4 years of a single language. </p>

<p>He was also told by an admissions director at a highly selective university that it’s just taken for granted that admittees would be proficient in a foreign language because most of them are, often more than one. You have to consider the competition.</p>

<p>So, if your son is not inclined or interested in studying one language for three or four years he needs to compensate for it in some other way. Lack of language proficiency is not necessarily a deal breaker, but it’s an uphill battle. </p>

<p>He may be able to explain the reason he switched to Spanish in his application (I wouldn’t touch a teacher conflict with a ten foot pole!). I would think that personal preference would be a sound enough explanation. I happen to love Latin, but not everyone sees the relevance.</p>

<p>Second, what he does after he’s admitted. My son wasn’t thrilled with the idea of taking a foreign language at college, both because he had other priorities and because he knew it would be a struggle. So he looked for colleges that either had totally open curricula or no foreign language requirement for graduation. Among these are Brown and Amherst (no requirements at all, except as part of your major) and Williams (no language requirement).</p>

<p>Those colleges that have a language requirement for graduation usually ask you to take a proficiency test or use your AP or IB scores as a placement determiner. You either place out or have to take the equivalent of 1 or 2 years of language study; it varies by school.</p>

<p>My advice would be for your son to bite the bullet, get some tutoring and stick with one -- not two -- more year of Latin, then call it quits in the language department. Studying language is like learning to play a musical instrument; not everyone has an aptitude for it. Latin, with it's logic and rules, is a actually easier for the language challenged than a spoken language.</p>

<p>[But then my son was the kid who had two separate languages including one that most people have never heard of and no math or science senior year. He did okay, but it was a big risk. :) ]</p>

8

<p>Colleges don't require 3-4 years of a single language arbitrarily. They do it because they want to see a reasonable level of competency in a language. My college refers to students as "competent" in a language after a year of college study. Most students who have studied a single spoken language for four years at a good school, but not at the AP level, are placed out of the first year of college study in the language. So, generally, competent = 1 year college = 4 years high school. Studying a language for two years at the high school level simply isn't enough for most students to gain any useful proficiency in the language. Two years of two different languages has so little worth, unless the second language is continued through college. It's not in line with the philosophy behind required language study.</p>

<p>That doesn't mean he can't do it. Most colleges that I know of recommend certain courses but don't strictly require them. It would be a weakness on his application for most schools that desire high school language study because, as I said, 2/2 is very different than 4 years of study in a single language in terms of level of proficiency achieved. Two years in a language in high school just isn't all that useful. </p>

<p>Now, the fact that the current language is Latin throws everything off a little. There are a few schools that recommend or require 4 years of study in a modern language. I understand the requirement, since they're looking for cultural fluency, and given that Latin is significantly different in terms of skills used than spoken languages, but I also think it's pretty stupid, given the fact that many of these schools probably have Classics as a major. On the one hand, I sort of want to just tell you to ignore this, since it's just something I remember reading on a few admissions websites, but I guess you should keep it in mind.</p>

<p>Anyway, I'm not convinced that your son has good enough reasons to switch languages. You say he hasn't clicked with his teacher, but you didn't mention any actual conflicts or disagreements. Not "clicking with" a teacher isn't the end of the world, and he may not have any more luck with the Spanish department. The other reason is that his grades are lower than he'd like, due to the fact that he didn't pay attention first year. Well, that's his fault for not paying attention. By switching languages, he's just avoiding the consequences of his actions. My advice: Encourage your son to seek out extra help from the teacher to clarify grammatical concepts from last year. If necessary, get a tutor and continue to see the teacher for extra help when possible. This will 1) improve his relationship with his teacher, 2) get his grades up, and 3) show him that the consequences of slacking off first year is extra work second year.</p>

9

<p>You all make good points and I think I am convinced that he should either (1) stick with Latin or (2) switch to Spanish and take a year of it over the summer. Given that his summers are pretty booked, my hunch is that he will stick with #1.</p>

10

<p>corranged can be president of my university any day. She is dead on.</p>

<p>There's one more consideration, though. One of the reasons to stick with a language for more than a couple of years in high school is to get to the good stuff. Learning verb conjugations, regular and irregular, noun cases, adjective agreement, and syntax isn't much fun no matter which language it is. Fun (or at lease interesting) is what you get when you know that stuff and can deal with real things -- which in Latin means texts like Virgil, Cicero, Ovid, etc. (all of which are within reach for 3rd year Lating students).</p>

<p>If your son starts over and takes two years of Spanish, he'll just be cycling through the same crap again. In fact, because of the differences in how Spanish and Latin are taught, he'll probably be bored to tears, because he'll already know 200% of the grammar that's being fed to him s l o w l y in Spanish class. </p>

<p>(My son, by the way, took Spanish in grades 7-8, and dropped it in favor of Latin. Now, after five years of Latin, he finds he can actually read Spanish tolerably well. He didn't click with his Latin teacher at first, either, but by the time he graduated they had learned to get along and had a mutual admiration society going.)</p>

11

<p>OP
My S did the opposite of yours. I wanted him to continue with Spanish, and he really didn't like the way it was taught. When I finally met the teacher, I understood. HS is 1/3 (?) Hispanic population, and verbal skills are large part of grade. For years parents tried to have school offer separate classes.</p>

<p>I think a few years of Latin offers an excellent background in grammar and provides a foundation for learning Romance languages. After that, let your S learn Spanish. His motivation will carry him forward.</p>

12

<p>I agree. I did three years of Latin, four of Spanish, and now I'm studying another romance language in college. I really enjoyed Latin; I would have taken it for longer but at the time my school didn't offer a class beyond the third year for Latin. It provides a great grammatical background that's useful for studying another language or just for understanding English grammar a little better.</p>

13

<p>My S1 took Latin and Spanish all through high school and did well in both. He got in most colleges he applied to.</p>

<p>S2, who is now a senior in hs, took one language for 2 years in high school (he had a year in 8th grade) and as a junior switched to taking Latin. So far, he has gotten into three of the colleges he applied to. He is still waiting for the other decisions. His switching languages was not a problem with college admissions. He did have one admissions officer ask about it. S2's reply was his school only allowed one language at a time and he wanted to try both of them.</p>

14

<p>If he is struggling with the basics of Latin, Schaum's Outlines are excellent for reinforcing/reteaching that stuff. Just FYI. You can get them at Borders/B&N/etc. (if not in the store, online). Barnes & Noble.com</a> - Books: Schaum's Outline of Latin Grammar, by Alan Fishbone, Paperback</p>

<p>I've used them for other languages and have looked through the Latin one, and they are excellent.</p>

15

<p>S1 took 3 years of Latin. After the second year, he wished he had done Spanish instead and considered switching like your S. He found out one of the schools he planned to apply to (Clemson Univ.) required 3 years of the same foreign language so he stuck Latin out for a third year but did not do a fourth as he was really sick of it and the fourth year would have been AP. </p>

<p>So maybe you should check into entrance requirements from specific schools he's interested in before he gives it up just to be safe.</p>

16

<p>Definitely remain in Latin!!! Ascendere ad infinitum!!!</p>

17

<p>If your son had no alternative but to switch languages after 2 years (for example, if Latin 3 had been eliminated in a budget cut), I don’t think he would suffer in terms of college admissions. </p>

<p>However, it looks as though he would be making the switch voluntarily. That could set off alarm bells, perhaps.</p>

<p>Would it be possible for him to get some tutoring in Latin over the summer so that he would feel more confident going into Latin 3? It sounds as though a sketchy understanding of grammar accounts for a major part of his difficulty with Latin. This is something that he and a tutor could work on.</p>

<p>If tutoring is not possible, perhaps he could work with some Latin textbooks or review books (perhaps a review book designed for people who will take the SAT Subject Test) to try to pick up the grammar details he missed.</p>

18

<p>Goes back to 2007, kid must be halfway through college by now!</p>

19

<p>On some forums, it is considered polite to search for old threads related to the issue you’re concerned about rather than starting a new one. </p>

<p>There have been several instances lately where people have resurrected very old threads, presumably because they were interested in the same issue as the OP. </p>

<p>Is this something that CC discourages?</p>

20

<p>As a moderator, I think it’s great when people (particularly new members) use the Search function to find out about specific things they’re interested in, it tends to prevent them starting a new thread to ask a FAQ.</p>

<p>However, when they post on an old thread, it brings up the problem of other members not noticing the date of the OP and addressing the original question(s). While I think it’s preferable to start a new thread if you want to continue the discussion topic, if you really think it’s necessary to continue on the old thread, then it’s helpful if you state that you are resurrecting an old thread so that others don’t get confused.</p>

<p>Not sure if I’m talking for other moderators or not, but this is what works for me.</p>