<p>hawkette,
There is more to a university than just small classes filled with coached standardized test takers. Your focus on test scores and other USNWR “objective” data gives a myopic viewpoint. Especially with your comments discounting academic viewpoints. When you consider other factors, such as faculty, research and breadth and depth of academic programs, which you often overlook, Michigan sits at a rightful place among the very best national research universities (much higher than the mid-30s).</p>
<p>LOL. Others have made the point, but it bears repeating: using “out-of-state” as THE metric of geographic diversity is just nonsense, for the simple reason that states are not created equal. States in the northeast quadrant of the country are small, compact, and close together in comparison with the rest of the country. Is a school in Philadelphia more “diverse” if a chunk of its students come from Philadelphia’s eastern suburbs (New Jersey) and another chunk from nearby Delaware a stone’s throw downriver, than a school in a city with all its suburbs in a single state? Sure, there are some state-specific differences, but really, these kids all grew up in a same media market, rooted for the same local sports teams, went to the same museums, shopped in the same stores, attended the same Mummers’ Parade on New Year’s Day, suffered through the same snowstorms and summer heat waves. They’re going to have had pretty much the same experiences growing up, at least as far as anything that geographic diversity would capture.</p>
<p>Here’s one example: Haverford shows 83% OOS. Sounds pretty diverse, right? Well, no. Check out the school website which has more detailed breakdowns by region: 17% Pennsylvania, 36% “other mid-Atlantic,” 14% New England (of which, I’ll wager, the vast majority come from Massachusetts and Connecticut). They also show 6% Southeast, but I suspect a big chunk of that 6% is from the Virginia suburbs of DC. So you have at least 2/3 and possibly more of the entering class coming from the Boston-Washington corridor, essentially. Boston-Washington is about 445 miles—less than the distance from San Francisco to San Diego, or from Detroit to, say, Houghton, Michigan. </p>
<p>So that leaves maybe up to 1/3 out-of-region. Not bad, I suppose, but not nearly as diverse as that misleading 83% OOS figure would suggest. Oh, and 6% Midwest; that would be about 19 Midwesterners. And 2% Southwest, which would be about 6 Southwesterners. Not so very diverse after all.</p>
<p>Ucb,
I try to look at things from the perspective of the student and begin by asking four major questions to evaluate what will be his/her experience/environment as an undergraduate student. </p>
<ol>
<li> How strong are the students? Stronger is preferred.</li>
<li> How small are the classrooms? Smaller is preferred.</li>
<li> What is the nature and quality of the instruction? Professors are preferred to TAs and high quality teaching is preferred (student input is necessary as part of making this judgment).</li>
<li> What is the school’s financial position AND is the institution willing to commit sufficient resources to support undergraduates? More money is preferred and lots of student services, including excellent financial aid, are preferred.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>There’s more, but that’s a good start. I should also add that IMO non-academic factors, ie, the life that one lives during the 150+ hours per week that one is not in class, can certainly trump my comparative factors/questions in determining the best destination for an individual student. </p>
<p>I don’t see such an approach as myopic. </p>
<p>By contrast, you suggest focus on research accomplishments and the perceived level of prestige within the academic world…and what else?? Could the myopia charge perhaps be more accurately applied to steadfast defenders of things like the PA scoring and other measures of prestige within the academic world?</p>
<p>collegehelp used to calculate some kind of index using in-state vs out-of-state, and for the life of him he couldn’t get that in-state for, say, Stanford covered a whole huge swathe of the population compared to in-state for, say, Brown. I agree with bclintonk. To be done right, the metric can’t be in-state vs out-of-state … it needs to be coming from within some geographic range (say, within a 200 mile radius) and it needs to be adjusted for the size of said radius.</p>
<p>To continue from post #63…</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The student bodies should be wealthy. At least 50% should be full payers.</p></li>
<li><p>For qualities of a school that are subjective, I will be the final arbitrator.</p></li>
<li><p>Breadth and depth of academic programs are not important.</p></li>
<li><p>The respect of academics by their peers is not important.</p></li>
<li><p>Too decide on the financial situation of a school and how it relates to students, take the endowment of a school and divide it by the amount of a school’s undergraduates. That number decides whether a school has enough money.</p></li>
<li><p>Minute differences make a large difference in deciding what school to go to.</p></li>
<li><p>SAT scores measure a person’s intelligence.</p></li>
<li><p>If you have only a few data points and there are multiples of data points we don’t know, it doesn’t matter. The few data points are enough.</p></li>
<li><p>USNWR’s objective data is really objective and that trumps subjective data.</p></li>
<li><p>Michigan is a good state school. I know more about the school than students that have gone there, professors who have taught there, academics from around the world. I read USNWR. </p></li>
<li><p>Schools in states where the Confederacy Flag used to be raised are underrated.</p></li>
<li><p>Hawkette, have you ever read the book “The Outliers” by Malcolm Gladwell? I think you would like that book.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>^ Again from an objective perspective, the sarcasm is really quite tiring. If you wish to make a case against hawkette, responding to a rational list with a parodic continuation doesn’t help your credibility.</p>
<p>My mind is quite open with regard to the University of Michigan, and I think I speak for many lurkers. So: what makes UMich a great school? The only evidence I’ve seen thus far is people citing its superior breadth/depth/respect of academics–in comparison to what? I confess I’m not intimately familiar with USNWR rankings, especially of National Us, so distinguishing between top 30 and top 20 means nothing to me. What schools, specifically, do you consider UMich superior to, and on what specific basis?</p>
<p>I’m sorry you didn’t like my last post.</p>
<p>Good luck on your college search.</p>
<p>If you need aid and you are out of state, UMich is probabaly not the school for you. I don’t think the school is that great for oos students that need aid. ( I could be wrong).</p>
<p>The school is one of the better schools in the country for depth and breadth of programs.
That’s compared to all the schools. I don’t want to get into which school is better than that school. That’s bs. The school is strong in so many areas. You can check out the website. <a href=“http://www.umich.edu%5B/url%5D”>www.umich.edu</a></p>
<p>If you want a school that is large, in a great college town, with fantastic school spirit and a strong sports scene, excellent academics, and you don’t care about cold weather, the school is worth a look.</p>
<p>If you want small classes you can get them in the honors colleges, or the residential college (depends on the major). You can take graduate courses as an undergrad. Seminars and research are available. You can get to know your professors. Go to office hours. Advisors are there , but the student has to be proactive.</p>
<p>If you want a more intimate atmosphere, like a LAC, Mich is not the school. If you like small class sizes, and can’t get into the honors college, and you aren’t interested in the residential college, Mich is not the school.</p>
<p>My daughter, who graduated from Mich, just spent the weekend at Mich with her former roommates and had a great time. She was interested in financial math and actuary classes. Probablilty classes. Classes that are not available at many schools.</p>
<p>She is on a sports team now. A Mich alumni team. Thousands of miles from the campus. There are Mich alumni all over the place.</p>
<p>But there are other great schools too. </p>
<p>I work with two people who went to Carleton. Very smart young adults. One turned down Harvard. (Not that that means anything, but I felt like dropping the H bomb). Carleton is different than UMICH. Carleton does not have the course offerings of a Michigan. The town isn’t as exciting. But you get a more intimate atmosphere. If that is what you want.</p>
<p>I believe that 80% of students end up liking their college.</p>
<p>And check out “the Outliers”.</p>
<p>Keilexandra, I’ll help you out: [About</a> U-M: Home](<a href=“http://vpcomm.umich.edu/aboutum/index.php]About”>http://vpcomm.umich.edu/aboutum/index.php)</p>
<p>Undergraduate Studies: [url=<a href=“http://www.umich.edu/undergrad.php]Undergraduate”>http://www.umich.edu/undergrad.php]Undergraduate</a> Studies | University of Michigan<a href=“12%20Schools%20Total”>/url</a></p>
<p>Graduate Studies: [url=<a href=“http://www.umich.edu/grad.php]Graduate”>http://www.umich.edu/grad.php]Graduate</a> Studies | University of Michigan<a href=“18%20Schools%20Total”>/url</a></p>
<p>As a U-M graduate student, the opportunities are endless here. The majority (over 70%) of U-M’s academic programs are ranked in the top 15 in the country.</p>
<p>That’s what makes it so great.</p>
<p>dstark, you misunderstand me. I, personally, have no interest in attending UMich although I was informally recruited there. I need FA and I prefer intimate LACs in small-town settings; it’s hard to find a poorer fit.</p>
<p>But with regard to reputation–I really am curious as to how one judges the strength of academic programs. If you think UMich is more “elite” than the top 30 national universities (you clearly do, or else you wouldn’t take issue with hawkette), then what schools are it “above” in your mind? I don’t really know what’s top 30 and what isn’t, either.</p>
<p>Obviously UMich will offer more breadth and depth, on an absolute level, than an LAC. But compared to any number of universities? Lists of programs tell me nothing except that those programs exist. And as an undergraduate, I’m not sure why I should care about the endless graduate opportunities. It’s not likely I–or most students–will enter college with super-advanced placement in my eventual major. (As I said earlier, I’ve an LAC bias.)</p>
<p>Keil:</p>
<p>In comparison to “what”? Everything! </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The vast majority of kids major in something other than what they indicated on their app. A large school just has more courses to take. If you are interested in languages for example, a Uni will offer linguistics, but a lot of LACs do not. Heck, even LACs known for languages don’t offer Ling. (Middlebury just started a program bcos their Prez was a Ling major.)</p>
<p>UMich is the quintessential public college experience. It’s rival in that regard would be UVa, which I think offers a little more personal touch, but not much bcos its a big public too. And, UVa isn’t as strong in something like engineering. But, publics for OOS, are mighty expensive. As highly as I think of my instate UCs, I do not beleive that they are worth the OOS price.</p>
<p>In general, private colleges will offer smaller classes, better counseling, and a bunch of other stuff for the money, but few offer D1 football or a broad an academic breadth (Duke and Stanford).</p>
<p>edit to add: if you are seeking LAC’s, why even ask about UMich?</p>
<p>Well, I’m not going to argue with you about Mich’s programs. Or discuss them further. I’m not interested in that. I hope that’s ok. And I didn’t think you were interested in UMich. Hopefully Roch, Carleton, or other schools you are interested in come thru for you.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>hey hey watch out you are talking to the gal who’ll get in yale SCEA if only she wasn’t ORM.
Outlier by you mean, the guy who ditched his public uni for Umich like, four decade or so ago when kids can do that with great ease?
You mean can I just do it now from CUNY?
Isn’t it a whole point Malcolm made, in his time, it was doable and that is what special about in that guy’s case?
You know what, under Gladwell’s law, you are forbiden to mention which school you went, especialy if it is somewhat any of top schools.</p>
<p>“dstark, you misunderstand me. I, personally, have no interest in attending UMich although I was informally recruited there. I need FA and I prefer intimate LACs in small-town settings; it’s hard to find a poorer fit.”</p>
<p>Actually, it is not hard to find a poorer fit. Michigan is in a small town setting. Ann Arbor has a population of 110,000 and has a very quaint town feel. As such, it meets one of your two criteria. Any large university in a large city would be a poor fit for you. That includes schools like Boston University, Columbia University, George Washington University, Harvard University, New York University, University of California-Los Angeles, University of Pennsylvania, University of Southern California, University of Texas-Austin etc…, all of which have over 20,000 students and are located in cities with over 500,000 people. </p>
<p>“But with regard to reputation–I really am curious as to how one judges the strength of academic programs. If you think UMich is more “elite” than the top 30 national universities (you clearly do, or else you wouldn’t take issue with hawkette), then what schools are it “above” in your mind? I don’t really know what’s top 30 and what isn’t, either.”</p>
<p>I thought dstark did a good job explaining Michigan’s academic strength without delving too much into boring details. Michigan’s academic departments are all very strong. Of the 13 main traditional academic disciplines (Anthropology, Biology, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, English, Geology, History, Mathematics, Physics, Political Sciences, Psychology and Sociology), Michigan is ranked among the top 5 in the nation in 5 of the 13, among the top 10 in the nation in 7 of the 13 and among the top 15 in the nation in all 13 traditional discipline. Only a dozen or so universities can match Michigan all-around excellence. As an undergraduate student, you will be spending two years taking clases in a wide spectrum of subjects (most in those 13 departments) and then you will focus for two years on a specific major, again, probably in one of those 13 traditional disciplines.</p>
<p>Beyond those 13 fields, Michigan also tends to be among the elite in many other specialized programs. For example, its Business program is generally considered one of the top 5 at the undergraduatelevel, as are its Music and Nursing programs. Michigan’s College of Engineering, practically a separate university with its own campus, is generally ranked among the top 10 in the nation, as are its colleges of Architecture and Public Affairs and Policy. All of those programs offer undergrads very specific and customized programs. Like I said above, only a dozen or so universities can match Michigan, whether we are looking at a single department or the university as a whole. </p>
<p>But the academic strength and faculty quality of the school are just one aspect of Michigan’s strength. Michigan resources and facilities are equally as impressive. The university has one of the most complete library networks in the world. with over 20 libraries holding over 9 million titles. Last I checked, it was the 6th or 7th largest library system owned by a university. </p>
<p>Michigan’s endowment now stands at $6 billion. Only 5 universities (Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale) have larger endowments. Columbia, with an endowment of $5.7 billion, is the only other university that comes close to Michigan. Of course, Michigan is larger than many schools with smaller endowment and on a per-student basis, Michigan’s endowment is closer to #25 in the nation rather than #5. But with just one exception, those schools with large endowments per student are private and receive no funding from their state governments. Michigan on the other hand receives $300 million from the state government. A university must have an endowment of $6 billion to generate $300 million of revenues. So if one is to compare Michigan’s financial situation to that of a private university, it operates more like a university with an endowment of $12 billion. Financially, only a handful of institutions are in better health than Michigan. </p>
<p>The facilities at Michigan are excellent and very well maintained. Each major department has its own building with state-of-the-art facilities. </p>
<p>“Obviously UMich will offer more breadth and depth, on an absolute level, than an LAC. But compared to any number of universities? Lists of programs tell me nothing except that those programs exist. And as an undergraduate, I’m not sure why I should care about the endless graduate opportunities. It’s not likely I–or most students–will enter college with super-advanced placement in my eventual major. (As I said earlier, I’ve an LAC bias.)”</p>
<p>Are you sure? Get back to me when you are a Junior in college. I took 6 graduate-level courses in college, and I was by no means a special case. Most fellow Econ majors took advanced level (600+) Econ classes. Graduate-level courses are definitely something ambitious undergrads stand to benefit from.</p>
<p>Alexandre,
I don’t disagree with you often, but I have to take exception to your exclusion of Philosophy from the “main traditional academic disciplines.” How “traditional” can you get? Philosophy is perhaps the most ancient and most persistent of the main lines of intellectual inquiry in the Western world. And Michigan’s no slouch at it, coming in at #5 in the U.S. and #6 in the entire English-speaking world in the 2009 Philosophical Gourmet survey of academics within the discipline, an elite position it has maintained for many decades. Nor is it a small field; in 2008, Philosophy came in as the 17th-most popular out of 115 concentrations in Michigan’s College of Literature, Science, & the Arts.</p>
<p>keilexandra,
I understand your impulse to go for LACs. My D is in much the same place. But when I see the kinds of academic resources she’s denying herself by not even considering a place like Michigan, I cringe a little. She’s looking at some very good LACs, and I’m pretty confident she’ll get into a good one and thrive there. But there may come a time when her academic ambitions exceed the rather confining bounds of the institution she attends. Indeed, I suspect that’s one of the main reasons top LACs produce so many Ph.D.s: many of their best graduates are well-rounded and well-grounded in the basics, but hunger for opportunities to go into greater depth than their LAC with its limited curriculum and small faculty affords, or find their intellectual interests ranging toward some field that isn’t even offered at the LAC. There are real trade-offs here. In the end, you need to decide for yourself, as does my D for herself. I hope you both choose wisely and well.</p>
<p>bclintonk, I apologize for not including Philosophy. It was unintentional as I agree that it (along with the Classics) is certainly a major traditional discipline. And Michigan does indeed excel in both Philisophy and the Classics.</p>
<p>Well now Keilexandra, I hope Alexandre and bclintonk answered your question(s) without dissing some other school(s) like some on this site tend to do.</p>
<p>dstark,
Re your post # 67…bravo! Shockingly good and fairly worded post. You made a presentation of why your favorite school is a good place and did so without arrogance or resorting to snubbing the dozens of other good places around the USA. Thank you.</p>
<p>The pie of very good American colleges is growing. The world of PA scorers may not want to recognize it, but it is patently obvious to anyone who bothers to visit these colleges and do some homework. Perpetuating an academic world hierarchy that denies this broad improvement serves no one’s interest…except the interests of those historical powers who originally had all of the resources. With the explosion of widely-available information and the vast uptick in interest in college generally, and top colleges in particular, the winner is the prospective student as his/her circle of potential excellent college choices has never been bigger.</p>
<p>
Visible academic awards seem to only go to those few historic powers…sorry, but the perpetuation of an academic heirarchy continues…some examples:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/783071-macarthur-genius-grant-winners-announced-news-item.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/783071-macarthur-genius-grant-winners-announced-news-item.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/797419-five-princeton-faculty-members-honored-physics-prizes-news-item.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/797419-five-princeton-faculty-members-honored-physics-prizes-news-item.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/745529-shaevitz-named-pew-scholar-biomedical-sciences-news-item.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/745529-shaevitz-named-pew-scholar-biomedical-sciences-news-item.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/717318-american-philosophical-society-elects-new-members-news-item.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/717318-american-philosophical-society-elects-new-members-news-item.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/704805-national-academy-sciences-elects-new-members-news-item.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/704805-national-academy-sciences-elects-new-members-news-item.html</a>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The problem, hawkette, is that no matter how large the pie becomes, not every college can be a 5 (on the PA score). (Of course, that assumes you don’t live in Lake Wobegone, where everything is above average!) And yes, education in general, and academia in particular, move very slowly, so change comes very slowly.</p>
<p>Hawkette, one major assumption you are making is that top universities have no improved over time. I am not familiar enough with every university, but just looking at Michigan over the last 25 years, I would say you would find it nearly impossible to list many schools that have improved more. The number of new buildings that have been built (Medical School and Hospital, Ross Business School, most of North Campus etc…) alone is impressive, to say nothing of its endowment, which has grown significantly faster than any other endowment in the nation. I am sure that other pillars of education (fellow top 10 or top 15 universities) have had similar improvements. I doubt many schools have managed to dethrone those leviathans. I am sure that many universities have emerged over the last two-three decades, and that the number of excellent universities has probably doubled in that period of time, but the elite remain the same because they continue to lead and establish trends. That is not going to change anytime soon. Of course, one does not have to attend one of those pillars of education to receive an excellent undergraduate education. Any of the nation’s top 100 or so colleges or universities will provide the resources and environment for undergrads to flourish.</p>