<p>The best measure of the relative value over time depends on if you are interested in comparing the cost or value of a Commodity , Income or Wealth , or a Project . For more discussion on how to pick the best measure, read the essay “Explaining the Measures of Worth.”
If you want to compare the value of a $15,000.00 Commodity in 1985 there are three choices. In 2011 the relative:
real price of that commodity is $31,400.00
labor value of that commodity is $30,100.00(using the unskilled wage) or $32,300.00(using production worker compensation)
income value of that commodity is $41,000.00</p>
But the catch is college costs, have increased at a rate way higher than the cost of living.</p>
<p>To go back to my Cornell example … in 77-78 … work during the school year ($1000) … work during summers and breaks ($3000) … student loan ($2500) … and a student is within a few hundred dollars of the cost of attendance.</p>
<p>Cornell 12-13 … work during the school year ($2500) … work during summer and breaks ($7500) … student loan ($6500 or whatever the average limit is) … and what is the total? About $40,000 short of paying the bill!</p>
<p>And these two scenarios are somehow similar? I do not understand how anyone can think so.</p>
<p>(PS - the numbers are estimates … however adding any precision to this situation does not change the dramatic change in structure of what is required to pay for a full-pay private school)</p>
<p>3togo–considering minimum wage in the 70’s was in the $3-4 dollar range, coming up with $3000 over the summer would have been DANG hard too.</p>
<p>Also, the Ivy’s are NOT good examples because they could charge $100,000 and would still have single digit acceptance rates. Also, state school comparisons are meaningless without the state contribution differential factored in. California state schools were free for the first 2 years in the 70’s so I am sure they have show an obscene tuition rate hike, but that doesn’t mean the cost has really gone up that much either. Again, apples to apples. Take out 2 years of paying at a CA state school and the tuition minimal in comparison, but since the state is broke and no longer paying that much, individuals have more of a burden. Again, I posted a link that shows on average, the percent of income for college today vs college in the 70’s is exactly the same when using salaries of people with college degrees.</p>
<p>The 77-78 Cornell example was real. I said a student who wanted to could pay their own way … but they really had to want to. To pay for my junior year I had a full-time and part-time job during the summer and averaged about 60 hours a week during the summer. I also worked all 4 weeks of Christmas break … and 10-15 hours/wk all during the school year. To pay for my senior I had a full-time job and a second job house painting some evenings and most weekends … and again worked during school and during winter break. It was hard but it could be done. </p>
<p>I posted a link that shows on average, the percent of income for college today vs college in the 70’s is exactly the same when using salaries of people with college degrees</p>
<p>Can you just point this out for me? I am not seeing it. I don’t see the comparison on the links. The CNN article is even subtitled: American incomes can’t keep up with tuition hikes. The CB seems to focus on earnings differntials between college degree and not. No mention of tuition.</p>
<p>ps, min wage in 1972 was $1.60. 1979, $2.90.</p>
<p>3togo–if some kid worked as many hours as you did not, with a wage of about $10/hour, very reasonable average wage across the country they would pull in $10,000/year ±-that number is an average of 20 hours/ week, but would be closer to 25,000/year with the 60 hours in the summer. If they lived at home that would be MORE than enough to pay tuition and costs at ANY state schools and tuition, room and board coupled with a small scholarships and some funds from mom and dad now. It’s not impossible, it’s just not done any more because kids just don’t work like that any more. I paid for 100% of my schooling with zero help from my parents. I worked 3 jobs in the summer, had an on campus job where I averaged 40 hours/week but was able to study while I was working–all at a private school where I lived on campus all 4 years. With the comparable jobs and scholarships, our kids could do the same at the same school (private school remember) but fortunately for them they don’t have to.</p>
<p>Again, this is the same stuff we have been hearing for the past 50+ years. It is not any different now then when we were in school.</p>
<p>I’m not sure if anyone else is listening anymore but I’ll try one last time to make my point and then fade away.</p>
<h2>
</p>
<p>I agree your scenario can be done. However in 1977 a student could, on their own, pay for ANY school, live on campus, and limit work to 10-15 hours per week (the max often recommended amount without affecting academics). Now it can be done however at a more limited set of schools (state or merit) and often in a more limiting way (no dorms and more work)</p>
<p>@3togo: The only one who is arguing is SteveMA I think. </p>
<p>"Again, this is the same stuff we have been hearing for the past 50+ years. It is not any different now then when we were in school. " - SteveMA
“People. you are talking 30+ years of rising costs.” - SteveMA</p>
<p>As many others have said, the issue is that tuition is rising faster than inflation. Click on the link on the first page, check out University of Washington and Washington State University (the two largest publics in the state). </p>
<p>Cost of Tuition, in 2011 dollars, has more than doubled since 2000 at these schools. I guarantee that niether salaries nor new grad employment rates have gone up at the same rate. </p>
<p>Plus due to the continual cuts to governement funding due to the budget crisis and the slow growing economy, people have very good reason to be concerned. It’s not same old same old, like you seem to think.</p>
<p>What isn’t raising faster than inflation and 3togo that is NOT true for “any” school at all, even back in the 80’s that was not true, let alone the 70’s. Sure, if someone lived at home they could make ends meet working that little or attending classes part time but making $2/hour to pay $4000/year for school just isn’t as “easy” as you seem to think, especially if they only work 10 hours/week, which is just over $1000/YEAR if they work 10/week/52 weeks/year. Even at 40 hour/week it is only $4000/year, before taxes.</p>
<p>Just to add one more data point, my undergrad college COA was $4000 when I graduated in 1980. Starting engineering salaries were about 20k. Same school now COA is 51k, starting engineering salaries are about 65k. In other words, 20% annual salary for one year of school in 1980, 78% of starting salary in 2012 for the same school and job. While SteveMA may find his situation is different, he must admit that he is in the very small minority. Also, most students will not be getting merit aid, so it is not appropriate to build a general argument around that. I also did not see the percent of income remaining constant that he keeps referring to in his links.</p>
Actually it gets easier the further back you go. I was in school when the tuition escalation really took off. I agree, by the the mid-80s and later a student on there own could not pay for any school, live in dorms, and only work 10-15/week during the term … however in the late 70s and before that it was doable.</p>
<p>PS - and I think that fact leads to a parent strategy of a lot of parents where they expect their kids to pay for school like they did … and for higher income families this is really putting the kids into a bind on their options because now the student on their own can’t make much of dent of the costs of a ton of schools.</p>
<p>Wow reading all of these posts makes college seem even more expensive than it should be. I am very surprised with how quickly the price of tuition and room and board skyrocketed.</p>
<p>Yes, I remember being very pleased that my first job while I was in HS in the late 60s paid $2/hr which was quite a bit above the minimum wage at the time. As I recall campus jobs in the early 70s paid $1.85/hr but I made more than that, closer to $3/hr, driving a cab during college. In-state tuition at the University of Michigan when I started in 1970 was somewhere around $750/year, which made it somewhat pricy for a state university at the time. According to the Yale Book of Numbers, tuition at Yale that year was $2550; full room and board brought the total up to $3900. I recall looking at Harvard’s catalog in my senior year in HS and it showed a “typical” student budget somewhere in excess of $4,000. FA at private colleges and universities was not nearly as good then as it is now, and my Dad made $18,000 a year with 6 kids to put through college, so schools like Yale and Harvard were way out of my price range. My parents thought I was being extravagant by going to the University of Michigan instead of a less expensive school, but they didn’t want to hold me back. I got a small merit scholarship, I had saved some money from working in HS and I continued to work every semester in college. In summers I was able to get factory work around Detroit, and later drove a cab in Ann Arbor. I paid something over half of my college costs, with my parents chipping in the other 35-40%, with their contribution front-loaded toward my earlier years in college and my paying for pretty much all of my senior year, and a good thing, too, because by then I had two younger siblings in college.</p>
<p>SteveMA’s right that everything has gone up, but I can’t imagine my daughters coming up with 60 to 65% of the cost of attending our state flagship today. D1 sometimes makes as much as $15/hr giving private swim lessons but usually their jobs pay closer to $10-12/hr, and the hours are harder to come by than back in my day.</p>
<p>Mom2, you haven’t sold your brother on the benefits of a certain other school? Something tells me your nieces and nephews would be very presidential.</p>
<p>Relative to starting salary and lifetime earnings, the institution I attended now costs twice as much in real terms than it did when I attended. The ROI on average has been halved. College is simply not as good an investment as it used to be, primarily due to rampant inflation of college costs rather than a poor economy.</p>
<p>*Quote:
I was talking to one of my sibs this week. He has a senior at SLO and a soph at UCLA. They receive no aid. His 3rd child will be applying soon. My bro is sick of paying out so much money. He’s to the point where the 3rd and 4th child will likely start at a CC, do TAG, just to save some money.</p>
<p>Mom2, you haven’t sold your brother on the benefits of a certain other school? Something tells me your nieces and nephews would be very presidential.
*</p>
<p>Actually, the UCLA-attending nephew really wanted to go to Bama…he had his dorm picked out and everything. He attended Capstone Scholars Day, had the Presidential scholarship and Engineering Scholarship in hand, but his parents just didn’t want him to go that far away. My SIL was working at the time so they thought that they could afford the higher cost of UCLA. So, instead of paying about $11k per year, they’re paying $30k. I’m sure now that SIL has been unemployed, they probably have had second thoughts. </p>
<p>BTW…happy to read your post in another thread that your son is happy at Bama. :)</p>
<p>Big merit can turn around the high costs of college, but many kids just can’t qualify for the needed amounts.</p>
<p>My youngest brothers’ kids will soon be college-bound. He’ll gladly accept big merit wherever he can find it. He also has four kids (my brothers have big famiies! One has 7 kids, one has 5 kids, and two have 4 kids each. )</p>
<p>The U.S. has been in a slow economic decline for 30 years do the abandonment of its manufacturing base. The promise of globalization has been proven to be false for all but those on the top on the income scale. The recent financial disaster (self brought by the money handlers) ratcheted up the speed and its deleterious effects by years. </p>
<p>The sad fact is: The children of our nation will NOT have the opportunities that we did. And hence, the will be more competition and contention even for the smallest opportunity.</p>
<p>SteveMA kind of covered this, but I feel like I should point it out. In terms of income per hour worked college costs haven’t risen nearly as drastically as they seem. They’ve risen nonetheless, but obviously people made a lot less money in 1950, which is why college cost so little comparatively. I’ve always thought that if a time machine was invented I would gather up all the money from before whenever I want to go to (let’s say 1970) and then go back in time. If I had $100,000 from now, it would be worth so much more then.</p>