College Counseling for Music Major?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I just sent one off last fall and she is having the time of her life at college. I used CC quite a bit as a guide and found it immensely helpful all the way through. My problem is that my DS (sophomore in HS) wants to major in music in college and I know NOTHING about this aspect. I have read through a number of posts here over the last week and quite frankly am completely overwhelmed with the whole audition/admissions process. DS has been playing Jazz piano for 8 years (and composing), sort of skipping the whole classical experience as a little kid. Having no music background, I was sort of flying by the seat of my pants with this kid (still am). He attends a large public school where the counselors are supposed to be everything to over 500 kids each. DS is a Johns Hopkins Talent Search kid, 4.0 student (although that could change this year - read on) and presently taking 3 AP classes as a sophomore (and 3 honors). His work load is insane and he spends the bulk of his evenings doing homework leaving very little time to what he loves (practice/play/write music). He is presently in 3 different music groups and feeling like he is giving everything a piece of himself and not really on top of it all.
We (he and I) intend to rectify this next year, lightening his load with a mix of fewer AP's, choosing honors track in some courses that offer AP. Registration is just around the corner. OK - that was a mouthful, now my questions!</p>

<p>1) Should I consider hiring a college counselor that has experience in music placement?
or is the consensus that I could figure it all out by following some great threads here?</p>

<p>2) A couple schools he is already looking at use academics as part of the admissions criteria. Are we making a mistake by taking the honors courses in some subjects vs AP so he has time to pursue music? </p>

<p>3) How in the world do you whittle the list of music program down? I just went through one thread on CC and came up with a list of 30 schools! (and this was just jazz/popular/composition programs) </p>

<p>Thanks for any feedback :)</p>

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<p>1) Depends on whether you have more money or more time to throw at the problem. You know that the high school counselors are not going to get the job done, so you either have to learn to do it yourself or hire someone who will help. Perhaps you have already read the series of articles I wrote at the start of the thread <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html&lt;/a&gt; If not, they may be of some help getting started even though they are about a classical string major. They will at least give you a feel for many of the tasks that need to be done, so that you can make a more informed decision on whether or not to hire someone. I think most parents get through it just fine on their own, but it can take both a lot of time and a lot of money. There is a lot of collective wisdom here on CC, so keep searching for applicable threads and keep asking questions when you need more information.</p>

<p>2) There are some schools where it is necessary to have a very high GPA and test scores to be considered. That is certainly the case at many top universities and LACs that are oriented toward a BA program where music is studied as more of an academic discipline. In most cases the BM programs that are more focused on pre-career training will consider the audition by far the most important element in determining admission. As you have already noticed, it is very hard in one high school curriculum to satisfy both the requirements for a high end conservatory program and a high end academic program. If you have a kid who is flat out brilliant, it may be possible. Otherwise, you have some choices to make. One possibility is to go the primarily academic route and head more toward musicology and composition at a top-tier academic program. Another is to intentionally lighten the academic load so that he will have more time to prepare for an audition into a more performance-based program. That decision depends a lot on how well your son can keep up his music skills relative to his likely competition, while taking on yet more time-consuming academic courses. Realize that the top stand-alone conservatories will not much care about academics - the audition is virtually everything there. If he can manage something like a 3.5 average, even without APs, and better than average SAT scores while putting together a strong audition (for piano) or a strong portfolio of compositions (for composition), he will have a lot of options at music schools associated with universities and LACs. If he is determined to go somewhere like Rice, Carnegie Mellon, Princeton or Yale, then he is going to need the whole package.</p>

<p>You should already be investigating summer programs for him that will let him measure his skills against that competition. It is pretty late for this summer, but there may still be some good programs that still have openings. If he is considering a admission to one of the higher end performance or composition programs, the summer program between junior and senior year is of particular importance. While it is possible to gain admission to a very good program without having gone to a summer program at all, I look at it as money and time well spent to determine whether the student has the ability and the temperament for a music major in an environment where we are talking about weeks and thousands of dollars rather than in one where we are talking about years and tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars.</p>

<p>3) You start with a long list and then whittle it down with some careful research. This comes in many varieties, including on the Internet, via word of mouth, through visits to schools and sample lessons with teachers, interactions at summer camps and so forth. This process can take a good deal of time and money, so it is good that you are starting now rather than a year from now. Your goal is probably to get it down to five to ten schools to which to apply. These should all be schools where your son would be happy to attend if he got the opportunity. There are a couple of schools of thought on choosing schools at which to audition. Some students choose to only apply to top programs thinking that, if they do not get accepted anywhere, they will either go into another major entirely or will take a gap year to prepare for the following year. Other students look for at least one or two academic/financial safety schools. “Safety” is a nebulous term where auditions are involved, because it is always possible to blow one, but the general idea is to find a school where your son would be close to the upper end of the applicant pool in terms of talent.</p>

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<p>I am not very familiar with Jazz, but this is a great time to have an excellent private teacher who has sent kids off to the kinds of schools your DS may be interested in attending. There are some jazz parents here who might be able to help in that regard - it is really important for other kinds of music so is it so for jazz too? This teacher can help them sort through the possibilities and get their audition ready so they show their best. If you do not know where to look for one - is there a college or university near you with a jazz department? You can look there.</p>

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<p>Hi there. I am also a non-musical mom who started this process essentially clueless, so take my comments in stride :wink: There are more experienced posters around here, a few with deeper jazz exp., but I’ll tell ya what I’ve learned – although most of it involves University school of music programs as opposed to traditional “conservatories”. (My s. is studying electronic composition/music tech at U of Michigan, but came from a background of both jazz and western/classical on trumpet (and various other instruments).</p>

<p>With respect to whittling it down, your son needs to look up the profs at each school that offers a JAZZ specific or COMPOSITION specific degree at schools that meet his other criteria (eg. rigorous schools, I am guessing), find their respective personal websites (which 90% will have) and listen to their music (or in many cases, buy some from iTunes). In each case, he would be well served to READ the grad requirements of each program and picture himself taking those courses and being happy. Then, deeper research via emails, visits, etc. can be conducted.</p>

<p>One major consideration is whether he is entertaining the pursuit of a composition program or a jazz studies/improv program, the latter of which can be a BA, a BFA or a BMUS, depending on the program. You may have gleaned these from other threads but here are a couple of jazz programs to which some of my son’s peers in the “northern” US have applied: University of Michigan BFA Jazz Studies/Improv (the benefit there is the composition department is one of the top and the SOM is large enough to have a rich offering of elections across fields…meaning if down the road he wants to study a little bit of midi/electronic composition or scoring as well, he can elect to). Your s’s academic credentials are a good fit for U of M if his performance experience is a fit. The school also has a very strong piano program in general and offers graduate study.
I know less about Northwestern but believe it has similar offerings (some of s’s jazz friends are quite excited about it) and the New School in NYC. I believe other parents have referenced Berklee, USC Thornton and Oberlin in terms of jazz programs. I think the poster SJTH is one who’s done the jazz circuit, as well as the plethora of folks with “jazz” in their names (eg. jazzshreddermom).</p>

<p>If he determines he’s interested in composition (but has no western canon background) he might want to get scoring now so that he can get his work performed live for his portfolio. Depending on the depth of theory he’s had, he may wish to see if AP Music Theory is available to him (since jazz theory is allegedly a little easier than western theory but in composition programs I believe you need a strong grasp on both).</p>

<p>If he applies somewhere like U of Mich for composition, he will first apply to the school (and EARLY), he will then submit his portfolio of scores and performed pieces by Dec. 1st, and would then, if selected, attend an interview session for final selection. If he applies to jazz studies, he will be invited to audition.</p>

<p>If you planned to undertake this process, my suggestion is to spend spring break VISITING as many programs as you can while school is still in session to get the most accurate feel of “fit”. This was invaluable for us. For U of M, we had arranged to visit on an audition day, so we had an early glimpse of the process. We came a day early and sat in on classes (a first year and 4th year). It was that experience that in my s’s case helped him develop his “first choice” over a few other well-regarded programs. His top 3 of 6 were developed this way. (He had different parameters, so his top 3 were UM, IU Jacobs, NYU. If he hadn’t been dead set against being too far away as an undergrad, he SHOULD have applied to USC Thornton for sure – and I suspect that depending on your geographical parameters, that would be a good candidate for your son as there is contemporary and compositional thrusts…and McGill would have been an obvious choice for him but they changed their program a little in a way that didn’t suit him so he’d abandoned that one)</p>

<p>Once you’ve determined which schools are on your list (don’t go too narrow because auditions are really truly a crap shoot), look up the audition repertoire this summer and make sure he gets a good start with direction from his teacher. Senior year, as you can guess, is heavy enough. If you can get a firm handle on the material and applications in the summer, your family with have a lot less stress and will optimize the options available to you. We do not regret the hundreds of hours my son spend prepping his portfolio the summer prior (or the fact that he “worked” less as a result)-- it totally paid off in a) getting his choice of program; b) having an enjoyable senior year c) keeping high marks in rigorous classes and d) letting mom just plain enjoy the whole experience with him ; )</p>

<p>Hope that helps. It’s a wild ride but it can be enjoyed!</p>

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<p>Good for your son (and you) that he knows his major goal in his sophomore year in HS. I would agree that he needs to ease up on the AP’s to give him more time to practice and compose. He’s already 4.0, so he really doesn’t need a GPA point boost. It would be preferable for him to have 3-4 hours each day available for practice and composing. If he’s not already planning a summer program for this summer, that’s what you should look to right away. Many application deadlines have passed, but in many cases these are “priority” deadlines, so call and inquire about applying late. I highly recommend Interlochen. I would also strongly urge your son to start classical piano. There are plenty of excellent programs that would require a classical audition in addition to a jazz audition. I’m not saying it’s realistic for your S to become a classical pianist in the next two years, but the training will really help him progress as a musician. Good luck!</p>

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<p>We found that other music parents were much more helpful than the HS guidance folks. In addition, DS got plenty of help from his high school band director, youth orchestra conductor, and private instrument instructor. The GC at the school really knew more about academic acceptances and knew precious little about auditions and the like. In fact, this “lovely” woman actually told our son “don’t bother applying to BU…you won’t get accepted anyway.” Surprise…he did and with a very nice performance merit scholarship. AND his university DID consider academics in admissions. He had to be admitted both academically AND via the audition into the music program. </p>

<p>If your kiddo goes to a university with a strong music department, it is very possible that AP course scores (usually 5s, but sometimes 4s) will net him some credit towards fulfilling university core requirements. My son had those as an undergrad and his AP credits got him credit for 4 courses which really lightened his core course load. </p>

<p>Bassdad and the others above summed it up well. I won’t repeat what they have said.</p>

<p>I will say…my kiddo did take the strongest academic load he could take. My reasoning…he “could” have changed his mind about music (would have surprised me…but it could have happened). And like I said…his AP course scores (English lit and history) both fulfilled core requirements that he therefore didn’t have to take at the school.</p>

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<p>Some kids really can load up on AP’s and still practice music for 3-4 hours per day. Even those who can can’t be sure they’ll get that 5 on the exam–they might be sick that day, whatever. It’s really okay to go to college without a lot of, or any AP credits, especially if the gpa and test scores are good. After all, if a student is interested in academics, the whole point of college is to take college courses isn’t it? So another way of looking at it is those kids who test out of, say, history, might be missing out on an amazing lower division history course at the university. </p>

<p>The OP states: “His work load is insane and he spends the bulk of his evenings doing homework leaving very little time to what he loves (practice/play/write music).” Sounds a lot like my D, so she did cut back to 2 AP’s junior year, none senior year. I personally wouldn’t sacrifice musical practice and opportunities for AP classes. Really, why??? Even if the student eventually changes majors, believe it or not, there are plenty of successful engineers/doctors/you name it who never even took calculus in high school. You can’t really recapture those lost years of musical growth, but you can always catch up on academic courses, within reason of course. </p>

<p>Each kid is different, so some can truly do it all, but I think they do best if they follow their hearts–with discipline and focus.</p>

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<p>I’ll second Thumper’s point about HS guidance folks not knowing a thing about music admissions. I learned everything about the process from this board. I really don’t know how we would have proceeded (in the dark, probably) without the stellar advice here. </p>

<p>I know two people who hired “Music College Counselors” and trust me, for the thousands in fees they paid, they didn’t learn anything or do anything better or different than we did with only the counsel of this board. All the answers are here, but you do have to devote a good bit of time to asking questions and reading posts (there was a time I think I read every relevant post, even those going back a couple years).</p>

<p>In terms of courseload, there are a lot of kids who manage very high level coursework and preparation for conservatory auditions, but it is difficult. We compromised with our son and let him continue on the AP track only for Math and Science (which were the easiest for him), and even out of History and languages altogether senior year so there was more time for music classes. That plan might have backfired at liberal arts schools for a music major, but worked out fine for him. He did earn enough AP credits to place out of a lot of his non-music coursework, which was very important, given his double major.</p>

<p>And whittling the programs down becomes less daunting, once you have gotten an independent appraisal of your S’s talent, and then visited a few and had some lessons. In that list of 30 or so schools, only a small number will be right for any individual kid. A list of 4-7 schools at which to audition ends up being most reasonable.</p>

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<p>Everyone here has given you great advice–so I’ll try not to repeat. I was in your boat 2-3 years ago when I found CC. To be honest, figuring this scene out became my job, and it was here on CC that I got my best education. I didn’t try to find an outside counselor who was music-specific, and I’m glad I didn’t. What happened because of being hands on was a deeper level of understanding of BOTH my son and his passion, and the opportunities out there. My son and I are much closer now, because I had forced myself to understand his world and (sort of) speak the language! :)</p>

<p>In our case, (small high school) the only jazz opportunities available to our son were extracurricular. That meant juggling school and extracurricular music (as well as soccer and mock trial). For him, it was do-able. He kept up the academics and the extracurriculars were fine. Music was obviously fantastic. He had two music mentors–one, his long-time teacher; and two, his youth jazz orchestra leader, who was instrumental (pun intended :slight_smile: in helping him select pre-screening and audition tunes and helping him get recorded.</p>

<p>As others have suggested, however, and especially since your son is a sophomore, I strongly encourage you to check out a summer program for him. Eastman Summer Jazz is one that has a later deadline, and was a fantastic camp for my son in several respects: Most importantly, he found out he was competitive in his instrument beyond the borders of our state. He realized he did indeed want to pursue a jazz major in college; he realized a standalone conservatory was probably not his cup of tea if he had options; and three, he narrowed down areas of the country he was interested in. Oh, and he has kept in touch with many of the friends he made there, plays with some of them in college and/or has friends of their friends. The jazz world is a small one.</p>

<p>You have time: read everything here ("so you want to be a music major is the BEST place to start,) find some other jazz parents and ask questions. Your son will figure out what he’s looking for in the next couple of years, and you can narrow it down.</p>

<p>Oh, finally, get him to start putting together a music resume of his HS activities–awards, performances, gigs etc., so you can refine it when the time comes.</p>

<p>Always happy to answer questions!</p>

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<p>Squiggles I too am a non-musical parent and this website is your best source of information. I too looked at the possibility of hiring a “college music counselor” about a year ago. The company actually dealt with the arts in general, and did not appear to know anything about my daughter’s particular instrument and wanted $3000. They were mostly offering academic and extra-curricular advice, and hand-holding as far as applications and deadlines and help with essays. My advice is start scanning this website as mentioned above. We have also had very good luck emailing a few university teachers around the country for advice and they have been mostly very kind and helpful (best to get your S to do this). So if you feel that you and your S are too busy to stay on top of the application process and you have the money then hiring a counselor may give you a measure of comfort but you will very likely still have to do the music school research yourself. And if your S wants to get into a top tier music program he will have to practice.</p>

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<p>You mean we can charge 3 grand for this? Cool! :wink: Maybe Bassdad should charge 4 grand…</p>

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<p>Thank you so much for all the suggestions. It has really helped me solidify my gut instincts and given me new food for thought. You will most likely see much more of me posting and looking for guidance and its great to see that other parents are so willing to help! Like I said in my original post, CC was the best “counselor” I found in helping my D through this process and she couldn’t be happier. Just gotta get this next one through it!</p>

<p>DS is presently waiting to hear from Berklee for summer placement (5-week/Jazz) and has been attending summer jazz programs for the past 3 years. What we haven’t done is attend programs with actual music conservatories yet. So I thank you very much for that information!</p>

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<p>Last year when my S was a senior in HS he had been working with a general college counselor but she had little experience with the nuances of applying as a music major. Our HS guidance counselor was not very helpful and our local music community had limited resources. It was not until October of Senior year that we were put in touch with a counselor who works specifically with music students, offering a range of services including an “evaluation” of music talent. This all, of course, came with a pretty hefty fee. My S really wanted to meet with this counselor and we did use some of her services. We had been on CC for about 9 months at this point and had done a considerable amount of research on our own.</p>

<p>The result was that the music specific counselor was able to confirm what we thought about his music ability and offer a list of suggestions of college programs. There was only one school on the list that he had not considered and luckily had time to apply. </p>

<p>In hindsight, this was a lot of time and money spent to reinforce information that we already knew. We also got the feeling that there were certain schools to which this counselor was partial. It would have been much more worthwhile if we had started this during Junior year.<br>
If you would like more specific info you can PM me, I do not want to give more specific info in the public forum since I believe this counselor does view this site. </p>

<p>My suggestion would be to follow this forum and take much of the great advice given by the students and parents that post here. Let your S immerse himself in music as much as possible, attend summer programs, and start visiting music schools early. It will all come together, slowly at first but then very quickly as the deadlines approach. Since you are reading CC at this point I suspect that you will be able to educate yourself very well in this process.</p>

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<p>I have just noticed that I was mistakenly thinking your son was a JUNIOR this year. You are in much better shape – soph was when we started visiting, actually, and were able to spread it out through summer, fall, winter auditions etc. that way. So forgive any sense of urgency you developed over “this spring break” ;)</p>

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<p>think through the kinds of options your son would like to have at the end of high school in assessing whether/how many AP’s it makes sense for him to take (though I’d say that 3 for a sophomore is quite a lot! at my kid’s school, only AP US Hist. was offered in 10th grade -they piled them on in 11th grade though). If your son aims at places like Harvard or Yale, then AP’s with top scores will be required. If your son wants to do a double degree program, as at Oberlin, AP’s can be very useful in fulfilling requirements - at Oberlin up to 27 units! - in the various divisions. [At Oberlin, even with a lot of AP’s it is a challenge to complete two majors - at a high level (including a senior honors project, for example).] But in any case, for academic purposes, your son wants to get the best grades he can - and also have a bit of a life - so overdoing it with AP’s is not a great idea. He can also self-study for some of the AP’s (English, for example, can be doable), while taking an honors class instead of the AP class.
Know your kid (and help him know himself): It could be a mistake to reduce the academic course load to the point of limiting his academic choices if it is possible/likely that he might ultimately not want to go to a conservatory-only program where grades and curriculum don’t matter much.
One thing you might do is visit some schools on that are possibilities - like Michigan, Northwestern, and Oberlin on a midwest trip. They are each quite distinctive.</p>

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<p>My performer son took challenging classes BUT his ONLY ONLY ECs were in music. Period. He had to give up sports after 10th grade because the practice interfered with his instrument lessons and the time commitment for the sport was just too much. He didn’t take AP course in areas where he didn’t already do well (he was a much better humanities student than science). In fact, he didn’t take any science, or foreign language his senior year at all. Actually…he ditched the foreign language after 10th grade (when he had completed Spanish 4). His senior math was economics…and his GC had to write a letter to his college telling them why he didn’t take precalculus (he would have failed it…AND in the field of music, knowing about economics was a bit more important…oh…that letter which we wrote and the GC signed, was the ONLY thing the HS GC did to help my kid with college applications).</p>

<p>I agree with others…post your questions here. There is a wealth of knowledge about schools, instruments, etc,</p>

<p>And…just my opinion here…your kiddo’s current private teacher should be giving you an objective view of his potential. Our kid’s certainly did!!!</p>

<p>Good that he’s done some summer things. </p>

<p>I’m assuming he’s taking piano lessons currently, That was one suggestion we heard EVERYWHERE when we started college trips with DS the spring break of his sophomore year…he was already taking them…but we heard that almost everywhere.</p>

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<p>The responses you’ve received within this thread are indicative of the depth and quality you will most likely receive to any query you post. </p>

<p>I would think of it this way: would you pay for a Strad if someone were to hand you a Guarneri gratis?</p>

<p>Think of the visits that you can do with with an extra $3k.</p>

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<p>Oh yes violadad…I definitely figured it out. Can’t wait to interact with you all. Well worth the original question I had :slight_smile: We can use that 3K to make some visits and get input from the teachers that count which I really hadn’t even thought about! Thank you again to everyone for all the input. So helpful.</p>

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<p>Squiggles…your son should be studying privately with the best possible teacher in your area. I’ll tell you why…my son started his instrument with his music teacher. She thought he was fabulous and compared to her other students, he was. He progressed to a higher level teacher who said he had “potential” but needed to work harder. And he did. The next teacher was a HIGHER level…and he guided DS even more. The teacher he had the last few years with the principal on his instrument in the symphony here. He did NOT view DS through rose colored glasses and that was a GOOD thing. He gave him a realistic assessment of his skills and potential, and guided him and supported him well…but he was VERY realistic. Honestly, his caring but candid work with DS really raised the bar…and gave DS what he needed to move forward.</p>

<p>A local teacher can be wonderful…but sometimes that “big fish in little pond” issue can be there. Another reason why doing some summer program that attracts students from far afield is a good one. The first year my son did that, he was SHOCKED to find that everyone was first chair in their home orchestra and he did NOT win that seat that summer. </p>

<p>So…it sounds like your kiddo has a number of music teachers in his life. Get all of their opinions but use them in the perspective in which they are offered.</p>

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<p>thumper is right: a teacher who has had success with students getting into conservatories can make a tremendous difference - as can top-notch summer experiences - and this is the time to see that this is happening for your son, so that he has 2 years of high school studying with such a teacher. You can also arrange for lessons from teachers at colleges/universities on your visits. At the very least it is good experience playing for knowledgable people, but your son should have his pieces well worked out and mastered, even if it is “just” a “lesson.”</p>