College for a kid who doesn't want to play the game?

Parents Forum
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<p>I tried posting before, but the site appeared to have eaten my post, so I apologize if this shows up twice.</p>

<p>My oldest is a sophomore at a rigorous, well-regarded public high school. So far, she has thrived there--all honors classes with As in everything except Alg. II. She got a near perfect score on her PSAT (the points she missed were in, you guessed it, math). She's good in writing (just got back from Breadloaf), art (a couple of awards) and music.</p>

<p>She was put in several AP classes for next year, but after looking at the curriculum, decided that the AP Lit course didn't look as interesting as another honors English course. Her guidance counselor, who thinks its her job to get the smart kids into the Ivies, is concerned that she'd be making a big mistake not to take the hardest class available to her. I am not being cynical. I get this. But I also get that my DD really loves learning for the fun of it and is very tired of just doing the "right things" and positioning herself to get into a top school. She says she wants to choose her challenges, rather than having a set menu of them thrust at her, if that makes sense. Most of all, she doesn't want to lose her joy in learning.</p>

<p>She has done a couple of those college match surveys, including this one, and the schools that come up consistently are Princeton and Stanford. She's a triple legacy at Stanford, but I'm pretty sure schools like that won't take a kid like her. In any case, she wants a small liberal arts school where she can study both music and English. </p>

<p>I am somewhat conflicted because I don't want her to make a decision now that diminishes her opportunities later, but I have to believe there are other people like her and that some colleges will recognize that they are smart, even if they take courses that interest them, rather than courses that make them look good.</p>

<p>I'm probably on the wrong site, but surely I'm not the only one with a kid like this?</p>

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<p>Just going to throw this out there since it seems relevant, somewhat.

from: [America</a> Via Erica: Coxsackie-Athens Valedictorian Speech 2010](<a href=“http://americaviaerica.blogspot.com/2010/07/coxsackie-athens-valedictorian-speech.html]America”>America Via Erica: Coxsackie-Athens High School Valedictory Speech 2010)</p>

<p>Anyways, if it were me, I would suck it up and take the AP class. But in all honesty (and retrospectively as someone who will be entering college next year), taking one less AP class will hardly make any difference for an admissions decision within the context of everything else that goes into an application. She could even turn her reasoning into an essay or something. Maybe sacrificing a passion for learning to fit the mold, so to speak, isn’t worth it.</p>

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<p>While it’s important that your daughter take what is considered a “most rigorous” class selection, it’s not absolutely necessary to take every possible AP. It is, in fact, often impossible to take every possible AP class, due to scheduling conflicts. So the bottom-line question is: will her counselor consider her class schedule the “most rigorous” and check that box on her evaluation form?</p>

<p>It’s admirable that your daughter doesn’t want to jump through hoops just because everyone says it’s what to do. At the same time, she should consider whether her long-term love of learning would benefit from later having an increased range of opportunities at Princeton or Stanford vs. perhaps the state school. If so, perhaps the immediate perceived sacrifice is worth the long-term opportunity. Also note that the AP English class that doesn’t look appealing from the course description could well turn out to much more interesting than she ever expected – it may not turn out to be a sacrifice at all!</p>

<p>Can she register for the AP class now and transfer to the honors class a week or two into next school year if she finds she really dislikes it?</p>

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<p>Oh, yes, that is very relevant. And I have a feeling this isn’t a case of her opting out of one AP class. I think she is telling me she just wants to opt out of the whole way of thinking. And that was the point of my question. Thanks for responding.</p>

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<p>Thanks for responding. My sense is that she really does want out of the game. It’s not that she doesn’t want to take rigorous classes, it’s that she wants to define that for herself. That’s my queston, and my concern.</p>

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<p>Smith College … or perhaps Sarah Lawrence.</p>

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<p>Wesleyan or Swathmore</p>

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<p>First, not sure why a kid with nearly straight A’s in honors classes, a near-perfect PSAT and triple legacy (assuming you are including at least one parent) wouldn’t be attractive to Stanford. Are you thinking she is too much of an independent learner/thinker? Because there is plenty of room for those at the top schools.</p>

<p>She could look at the rigorous LACs- that’s fine. (Get an idea of those, before moving down the list.) But, her college thoughts at the end of soph year can change many times before 12/31 of her senior year. You’ll want to get her to visit a selection of schools, starting this summer. (Make them casual visits, if that’s all she can bear for now.) If you are in MA, that’s easy. </p>

<p>If she’s been a top performer all along, then of course she may be getting tired of the same old. But, she’s too young for final decisions or anything that alters her future opps too radically. Once she learns more about a range of schools, she may get excited about the independence many offer. That’s why the conventional advice is to keep at an “overall pattern” of the rigorous classes. No matter her math limitations, stick with pre-calc and calc. Watch out for the optional filler classes. If you personally feel the honors English class is satisfactory, go for it. But, I’d let mine know that, as her interests develop, she may need to consider an AP Engl class in jr and/or sr year.</p>

<p>Brown, Bowdoin, Amherst (because it’s in the 5-school consortium,) etc. Did she like Midd? Does she have an inkling of what she’d like to study? Good luck. It’s hard. </p>

<p>Also, you need to make sure you are looking into financial aid realities now. Don’t be blindsided. Finaid.org is a great place to start. AND, as you eek out a list of possible colleges, look at their online course catalogs- it’s a great way to really see what the academics offer. (And, to see how she feels about schools with deeper gen ed requirements vs those that have none or few.)</p>

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<p>Well, that’s a bit of different situation, Massmomm. I have a son who is very bright, does not care about grades, just about learning, and might well have been at risk of hating school as his freshman year progressed. I took him down to the nearby university and had him sit in on a college chemistry class from day one of second semester, with no obligation to continue. I thought he might be in over his head, never having had any background in chemistry and surrounded by students all at least 4 years his senior. At the same time, I knew he was bored with the pace of his high school classes and with the endless busywork assignments – I wanted him to realize that there truly was joy-of-learning at the end of his educational process.</p>

<p>He took to the class like a fish to water. He was transformed, he was ALIVE! He eagerly worked on SUGGESTED homework problems, carefully prepared his lab reports and, surprisingly, seemed to have more energy than before, even for his high school classes.</p>

<p>He had been given a chance to glimpse behind the curtain to see a future opportunity, and one that might be kept from him if he didn’t play the game right. Life, I told him, is like a video game with a crummy level or two you have to get through to get to the fun stuff. You don’t have to agree with the rules, but if you want to get to the fun levels, you need to UNDERSTAND those rules and play accordingly. </p>

<p>Your daughter may need her own glimpse behind the curtain – take her to sit in on a community college class and then have her sit in on one at Princeton or Stanford or somewhere similar over the summer. Have her see with her own eyes and then let her determine if the reward is truly worth the effort of playing the game.</p>

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<p>Why on earth do you think that schools like Stanford or Princeton don’t want kids like yours? And why on earth would anyone think that Swat or Wesleyan would be more itnerested? Yes, it’s slightly easier to get into Swat and quite a bit easier to get into Wesleyan, but as “The Gatekeepers” shows, the admissions processes are NOT wholly different. </p>

<p>Believe it or not, colleges ARE looking for kids who like to learn. Now, if your D opts out of all the top classes, she’s cooked her goose. But picking and choosing is just fine. </p>

<p>In all honesty, I’ve seen a ton of kids who tried to “play the game” for the sake of college admissions get rejected from top colleges. They feel really depressed–“Why did I work so hard if I’m going to end up at the same college as the kids in my class who didn’t pull all nighters or take every AP course?” And then I’ve seen the kids who marched to their own drum beat get into top colleges where few people thought they had a chance. </p>

<p>If your D is participating in Breadloaf, the fact that she didn’t take AP English Lit isn’t going to matter. Nobody with half an ounce of common sense is going to think she avoided it because she thought it would be “hard.”</p>

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<p>^^^ very well put jonri.</p>

<p>I want to emphasis one point:

</p>

<p>I would let her take the honors class over the AP class. She is creating her own path, which is exactly what the top schools want.</p>

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<p>Funny you should mention Sarah Lawrence. She read about it in a novel last fall and told me it seemed like a school she’d would like. So maybe you are onto something.</p>

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<p>Sadly, I can really believe that great kids like your daughter exist- they are not naturally sucked into the narrow definition of success that college preparation and admissions appears to be, and may be, depending on who they are.
Well-rounded kids can get lost in the process, as can very very pointy/specialized kids.
And not all bright kids are turned on by the “arms race” aspect, to say the least!</p>

<p>YES- the high degree of competitiveness means that schools even like those mentioned above may not select your D if her stats, course rigor, etc are not up to their standard- the number of apps is astounding, the number of great kids with so many accomplishments is very impressive! </p>

<p>Still, the point of holistic admissions IS to look at a candidate for what they are, just as long as they can do the work, and participate in/add to the community. So, who IS you D?!! How IS she special? Her HS career is a story about her, and her opportunity to explore what she wants to.</p>

<p>There are a number of schools where testing is optional, where Subject Tests are optional, etc.</p>

<p>You and your D need to sit down and have a talk about how the system works, what her interests, goals, dreams, strengths are.
You could thumb through Fiske guide together, and Colleges That Change the World by Loren Pope, to explore the range of academic/social options and corresponding academic qualifications.
How important is it for your D to be on a campus with bright kids? With or not with competitive kids? To have the freedom to study what she wants?
An early visit to two very different colleges ASAP (most are closed, but not all) might be of interest to her.</p>

<p>Last, is she opting out because she is overwhelmed? or turned off, staying true to her character?</p>

<p>Have a look at Kenyon, Oberlin, Smith, Barnard, Wellesley. And then some in the top 10. Her reaction will be a good guide to what approach she should take.</p>

<p>I am all in support of ANY kid who is sticking to his guns, but hope it is not a kid opting out in fear or laziness or being misguided.</p>

<p>What would she DO instead of the higher level course? Will it give her more time to pursue something else, or take something else at a higher level? Or does she need more down-time??</p>

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<p>^^^ I think the OP said that the D wanted to take an Honors English class that she considered more interesting.</p>

<p>When we went to visit Smith College, the Director of Admissions actually told the young women NOT to take 4-5 APs every year. That 2-3 were enough. It is important for the GC’s support but…</p>

<p>My D is right where your D is. She says she is tired of “jumping through hoops”. So she took off first semester senior year to do an internship in Rome (Italy) in her chosen field (archival work). We know it likely hurt her a little in admissions, but it was worth it to her to actually “live her life” rather than drudge through another year in h.s. It worked out fine for her in acceptances, although not at top tier schools. She got waitlisted a few places but got in to SUNY New Paltz and Hampshire College (where she is attending) and a number of other small colleges.</p>

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<p>S1 is a very bright boy who never had any interest in grades. He did take a “most rigorous” cirriculum in high school, got mainly As (some high, some low) and some Bs. He ended up with an unweighted GPA of 93. Wasn’t in the top 10% of his very competitive suburban school. He wrote his college essay on his interest in learning and how he was looking forward to going to college so he could be with students who were there because they loved to learn instead of students who could have cared less about the subject matter, they were just after the grades. He fell in love when he visited Swarthmore and they talked about the noncompatitive atmosphere and that no one ever talks about grades. He has just completed a very happy second year at Swarthmore. There is undoubledly an excellent school for your daughter, Ivy or not, where she can get a wonderful education and thrive.</p>

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<p>Swarthmore and Wes are great ideas.<br>
Brown, Grinnell (IA,) and Amherst have the “open curriculum.” Look into the concept. It eliminates mandatory “gen ed” requirements and lets the kids chart their own course- they do have to take X number of classes in their major. You can find a list of others with a near-OC online.<br>
Everyone is offering great advice here.</p>

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<p>She did like what she saw of Middlebury, but the tour (all Breadloaf parents and their kids) was hugely overcrowded, and it was pouring rain, so we followed it for a bit and then just went our own way. She wants to do the tour another day next year. I do think that would be a great school for her, but she doesn’t want me to push her.</p>

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<p>A kid who is not willing to play the game now may develop the habit of not following the norm when get into the real world. We all know the consequences of trying to “do the right thing”. The world is a tougher place for people like that. It would be better to learn early and avoid costly mistakes later in life. She can choose whatever college she fits in. However, when getting into the real world her options may be limited.</p>

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<p>I realize it’s a little too early to speak of college selection, but there are some schools that actively market themselves to exactly that kind of self-directed learner/independent thinker and strive to build the sort of community your daughter would thrive in. So the fact that her peers and teachers don’t understand her very well now doesn’t necessarily mean she’ll remain misunderstood in college.</p>

<p>Not to toot my own horn here, but I think Reed would be a great place for someone who’s interested in learning for its own sake and doesn’t want to let terms like selectivity, prestige, leadership positions, competitive, etc. dictate her life. High-quality scholarship and off-the-beaten-track mentality are two of Reed’s defining features.</p>

<p>Other schools to look at may be Oberlin, Swarthmore, Carleton, Grinnell, Kenyon, UChicago, Colorado College, Sarah Lawrence, Vassar… I’m sure there are more.</p>

<p>Don’t worry; there are schools that would love to have your daughter and they’re most likely schools she’d love to be at.</p>

<p>Moreover, who’s to say Stanford is out of the question? As far as I know, Stanford likes to see a little personality, some spark in its applicants. If she likes the idea of going there (and that is of course the big question, given her personality), I don’t see a reason not to apply.</p>

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<p>How not being mediocre is a bad thing is beyond me.</p>

<p>You know who else didn’t follow the norm? Every single successful person in history.</p>

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<p>One thing for her to think about is who she wants to learn <em>with</em> both in high school and college. She may not be so happy next year if the other kids in the English class don’t have a similar depth of analysis, even if she is reading works she likes better. In addition to talking to her guidance counsellor, she should talk to her English teachers! </p>

<p>It’s wonderful to want to delve deep and learn for learning’s sake, but it’s not a solo journey. And the same will go for college. She should think about who she wants to learn and live with then as well. Who are the kids attracted to this school? Will they be as interested in learning (and performing) as she is?</p>