College Is a Dinosaur

Parents Forum
21

<p>

</p>

<p>Have you been to a community college lately? Believe it or not, many of them are vibrant places with some pretty nice facilities. Check out the art studios, the college museums (small but full of engaged students), the sports facilities, computer labs and science labs. The common areas and cafeterias are full of students working and socializing.
I took an Art History series at my community college a few years ago and was very impressed with the level of instruction and surprised at the amount of collaboration going on between students as well as with the instructor. It was so much fun, and what made it so was the people, their engagement, their insights, the spontaneous humor and human connection-- there is no way I would have preferred an online version of that course, nor would I have learned as much. I was one of the very few non-traditional students in a class of about 100, so I didn’t really establish any relationships that I took outside of the classroom, but it seemed as if most of the younger students did.</p>

<p>Sorry, but I don’t see how sitting behind a computer day in and day out in any way compares to college life- from community college on up. Online learning is an entirely different experience that has its place, but it’s not college.</p>

22

<p>Look around moonchild - anyone under the age of 36 engages entirely different than anyone older. Email, Skype, Text, FB, Twitter - that is how the next generation is interacting. You can try and fight it… good luck.</p>

23

<p>^^^Not true. Sure, they text and twitter (although not email so much outside of work, that’s for us old folks), but that’s not all they do, by a longshot. Hey, I have a 25 and 28 year old so I’m not clueless. :wink: Both of them have social lives, real life ones, that far outdo anything I ever had or ever will have. And where do you think they met these people that are such an important part of their lives?
Texting replaces the phone to a large extent, but it in no way replaces face-to-face contact.
And I don’t plan to “fight it.” Humans have always congregated to learn and share ideas, and they always will.</p>

24

<p>You can’t base future behavior on past experience when the “how” is changing so radically.</p>

<p>[Why</a> It’s Time to Ditch Your Office | LinkedIn](<a href=“http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/influencers/20130916171740-5853751-why-it-s-time-to-ditch-your-office]Why”>http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/influencers/20130916171740-5853751-why-it-s-time-to-ditch-your-office)</p>

<p>I’m like you - old school. Always up and at the office by 7AM. Until about 7 years ago - that turned into 3 days a week. And now? it’s disappeared totally. I am home based. When I visit the office in NJ twice a year; we had 200 people buzzing in cubicles 10 years ago, it was so loud you had to duck into a conference room to have a conversation. Now? it’s like a library. I can go 3 days without hearing a phone ring. Different times.</p>

25

<p>Of course this can work well for a lot of companies, depending on the industry, but work is not the same as education. In the one, you’re primarily the producer of information. In the other, you’re the receiver of information.</p>

<p>Both of my kids’ educations involved a tremendous amount of lab and field work. It’s hard even to imagine how they could have learned their disciplines without it, and without the close mentoring that they received from the experts in their fields.
My daughter had access to the vast archaeology archives at her college where she would meet with others and learn how to examine and document the artifacts, most which had never been cataloged, much less made available online. A lot of knowledge gained from rubbing shoulders with experts in a field like this is not written down, but learned by doing, by being critiqued, and by modeling.<br>
Sure there will be some who think it’s good enough to get their complete education online and through media. But in science and in many creative fields, I don’t see it ever becoming “as good as” an education where you can work alongside others, sometimes alongside the best. And those who are able to pay for it will go that route.</p>

<p>My one worry about this trend is that it will separate those who can afford a face-to-face education from those who cannot even more that the system we have now. I don’t worry that it will vanish- only that it will become a privilege to the extent that most don’t have access. And this would not just hurt the students left behind, but it could greatly reduce our collective knowledge as a society.
Hey, why not get rid of community college and just let those kids dial into their local UC? In fact, do we even need all these UCs? Let’s just fund the best. Think of all the money this could save the state! Not good.</p>

26

<p>Adapt or die, that’s the mantra. Blacksmiths could only be taught by doing. Everything from insurance to furniture had to be bought “face to face” just a mere decade ago.</p>

<p>There will always be exceptions to the rule… but its “the rule” that we’re discussing.</p>

27

<p>I guess I don’t see that much of a similarity between education and commerce. </p>

<p>Education most often comes about through inspiration. It’s very common for students to enter college with one major in mind, and switch in a few semesters after they have tasted a wider range of possibilities. Being able to sample this potpourri of knowledge in fields they have never considered is one of the great gifts of a college education, and one of the reasons I preferred my kids go to a school that required some kind of core, or breath requirements - just to get them to sample a few things outside their comfort zone that they probably would never have explored left to their own devices.
Also, when I think about their education, I don’t just value the degrees they received, but the growth that they gained getting those degrees. Most of the growth had more to do with the people they met, collaborated with, worked alongside and were influenced by.<br>
The more isolated a student may be in his or her home community due to location or family situation, the more valuable is the chance to experience life “in the world” for a few years-- those few very important years that often shape who they will become. College is exposure to people and ways of thinking that you just won’t find in your own hometown, as a good college or university brings the larger world to you, personally, and often results in promoting understanding and tolerance, and helps a young person find his place in the world. </p>

<p>There is so much to be learned in community.</p>

28

<p>Being productive contributors to, or operators in, some level of commerce is what drives education!</p>

<p>Your values vs. work world values. Apples and oranges.</p>

<p>I don’t disagree with your assertion, but it does wax a little nostalgic.</p>

29

<p>

</p>

<p>Things haven’t needed to be bought “face to face” since Sears Roebuck started sending out catalogues at the end of the 19th century. </p>

<p>True, technology can speed and streamline transactional relationships but that’s hardly the only way we interact. There’s a reason why John Kerry and the Russian Foreign minister didn’t Skype or e-mail about Syria -because face to face was a faster and more efficient way to negotiate.</p>

<p>It’s true in business, it’s true in politics, why should it not also be true in education.</p>

30

<p>The completion rates for online classes are poor and the debts to be repaid massive. The entire enterprise will implode. A few will be around in 20 years catering to older students and others without access to a real college. Grads of the better real colleges will still dominate.</p>

31

<p>Employers use 4-year colleges as a screener for their prospective employees. MOOCs have value, but they will not replace bricks and mortar 4-year colleges for those most coveted jobs.</p>

32

<p>If TV and CDs and radio did not eliminate school, than the internet will not eliminate college. An education is not a commodity comparable to a consumer hard good. It is a process and a series of relationships. The degree is the credential that certifies the experience, but ultimately it’s only as valuable as the experience it certifies. </p>

<p>It’s been suggested that the scarcity value of a college degree before the 1970s is what gave it the economic value it had, not the intrinsic value. It’s possible that, given the dynamic described by Moonchild in #26, a degree from a real as opposed to a virtual institution will come to be rarer, and thus more valued, than it currently is. As Paul Fussell once said, “opening up educational opportunity” is often just another disguised way of ripping off “proles” with the best of intentions. Frankly that’s what I think a lot of online education will turn out to be.</p>

33

<p>Years ago, an engineering and architecture degree took 5 years. Now it’s four years. The primary reason: the cost of that extra year. </p>

<p>Today, private schools cost 50k+ per year. Shaving one year from that will ease the burden now shouldered by hard working middle class parents and reduce the burden of loans which are shouldered by graduates. HYPS and the like will not be effected; but many “lesser” schools are staring into the abyss when entities such as Coursera figure out how to convince employers to hire people who have accumulated credits through MOOCs.</p>

<p>For those who claim that these courses are somehow diluted due to their large size, I wonder how it is that many schools offer Chem, physics, History, biology classes with 400 students in a lecture hall and claim that such a lecture is any different.</p>

<p>Some of the classes offered on Coursera have some of the finest lectures/lecturers I’ve ever seen (and I have an advanced professional degree, so I’ve seen quite a large number of lectures). Unfettered by geography or cost, a student can take classes from top line schools, with top line professors, participate and initiate discussions, setup study groups in your city, delve deeply into all aspects presented in a course, take tests, even do labs. You can listen to a lecture, and stop and repeat critical points (try doing that in an intro class of 400). </p>

<p>Now, Wharton’s MBA program is introducing four of its courses through Coursera. While not given credit directly, the students can “test out” of those classes if they attend Wharton. </p>

<p>[Wharton</a> Puts First-Year MBA Courses Online for Free - Businessweek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?) </p>

<p>While not for everyone, the incredible depth and breadth of theses classes, and the trajectory of their acceptance (a year ago Coursera was offering a fraction of the current offerings) by universities heralds a new era - if, IMHO, the students taking these classes can find decent jobs (in other words, employers accepting this type of learning as an alternative to the traditional approach).</p>

<p>To compare non-interactive technologies of the past with the Internet and with the interactive uses now emerging, is not an accurate analogy.</p>

<p>The times, they are a changin.</p>

34

<p>Online courses are a good supplmenent to university coursework, but not a good replacement. Selective residential colleges offer so much to our society as a way of grouping and developing our top talent, they will never go away. But online education will creep in there, controlling costs and improving the experience. </p>

<p>There are certain advantages to online education when done well, like the social / online discussions, allowing people to particpate that wouldn’t in a classroom. Replays of lectures. Links to real world info. Short Videos. Short quizes. Work anywhere.</p>

<p>Online will play a broader role in the community college world, vocational degrees, and post gradutate education.</p>

35

<p>Need to find the spellcheck on this site…</p>

36

<p>I agree 100% with what stemit posted earlier. I couldn’t have said it better </p>

<p>Here are a few reasons (repeating mostly what stemit said) why I think online education will be the dominant form in just a few years.</p>

<p>[ul]
[<em>] Quality
[</em>] Flexibility, in terms of schedule and pace
[<em>] Cost
[</em>] Competition: For reasons stated above, people who go through the online form will have competitive advantage. I think people in China and India will get on this bandwagon earlier that we do and that will put pressure on us like we have never seen before.
[/ul]</p>

<p>My wife did one of her masters online and her experience far exceeded her expectations. She thoroughly enjoyed her group projects and never once felt that the online form of interactions were limiting in any way. </p>

<p>When online education becomes the dominant form current colleges will transform into nothing but facilities for providing augmenting services (and USNWR will go out of circulation.) :)</p>

37

<p>I recently put my mother in assisted living after a stroke. There are many different types of facilties these days that segregate the elderly.</p>

<p>This got me thinking about the fact that our public high schools, especially those of low quality, are essentially similarly locked buildings that segregate an age group.</p>

<p>When you think about it, residential colleges for 18-23 year-olds also segregate an age group, and keep them “off the streets” until society views them as mature enough to work responsibly.</p>

<p>Students have a place to live, food provided, social and internship opportunities: a place to transition from home and move slowly toward adulthood.</p>

<p>Lots of quality activities and relationships at my mom’s assisted living place too. So I am not negating the value of the experience at all.</p>

<p>Those who do not have the opportunity for residential college usually live at home, if they are younger, and often work at low wage jobs. Older “non traditional” students are maintaining a home of their own, working, and sometimes have families. For all of these students, online classes are a godsend, but also a symptom of their lack of access to the benefits of residential college.</p>

<p>The few low-residency programs are another alternative that do offer a taste of the benefits of residential college, for 5-10 days, twice a year.</p>

<p>One more thing: the MOOC I took had 10,000 students. For now, I am skipping MOOC’s and sticking to for credit online courses offered by quality schools. I am impressed, as I said before, by the online courses I have taken.</p>

38

<p>Sure, the on-line degree has its place for certain situations but to say that it will replace the brick and mortar for the traditional college student seems a bit of a stretch. Actually it seems sad in many respects.</p>

<p>So for the 18-21 year old traditional student, will they now be living at home with Mom and Dad instead of going to college? Hello helicoptor parents of the next generation. What about high school. Seems kind of silly to have kids go to the local high school and then stay home for on-line college. Looks like we will be revamping the entire American education system. And how will this play out for the futures of these kids? Now American students will be competing directly with virtual students from all over the world.</p>

<p>Everyone is so quick to jump on the bandwagon and to get in “on the ground floor” so as not to miss some exciting new technology. What’s next, having students do a virtual study abroad or join a virtual fraternity? There are layers to this that need to examined. A purely technical society will surely create many problems that we will not be aware of until it is too late.</p>

39

<p>^why do you assume that the living situation is an either/or decision (home or in residential colleges)? An on line student can be traveling the globe, working on a kibbutz, working a full time ski instructor job in Aspen, rounding up cattle in Austrialia. Where the physical address is on the online student is limited only by the imagination.</p>

<p>One further advantage of the Coursera type model is the ability to find those unique professors who can communicate the subject matter in a way which turns on the inner learning switch. While I said that I have had the best lecturers I’ve ever seen, I neglected to point out that I’ve also had some terrible ones on Coursera. For those, I dropped the course and moved on - often replacing the dropped class with another immediately (since new courses begin frequently). </p>

<p>How many of us remember that great prof, how that great prof turned a dry subject into a living topic (and the opposite)? Too many times I’ve seen my kids slog through a course unable to change it due to poor lecture/communication skills. We pay too much money for that type of education.</p>

<p>These new online course offerings (not to be confused with the stereotyped old formats) are very different. In fact, in just that 18 months I’ve been taking courses, the evolution of the formats has been considerable. Initially, some universities simply rebottled old online courses. For the most part, I thought those were the worst(closer to the CD method). </p>

<p>The crack in the dam may occur when the first mover - a respected old school - realizes that it can actually increase the number of students it educates without impacting its overhead, thereby increasing its revenues. For example, lets say a school has 6k dorm beds. Further assume that off campus housing doesn’t exist. Thus, each class is 1500 students (6000 revenue payers at 50k each). If this school can convince students to take the first year on line, each class can be expanded to 2000 each. The school now has 8000 revenue payers - the school can decide how much to charge for that first year taken online (the student can physicallyl be anywhere). If the school charges 15k for that first year, that means a pretty big chunk of change for a nominal increase in administrative overhead.</p>

<p>But, if and only if, employers will accept that type of learning. And, as interviews with many top execs indicate, employers are moving in that direction.</p>

<p>The online approach is not a one size fits all. It does lack the intimacy of the LAC, the social interaction of the college weekend, the tradition of a tried and true approach (the good and the bad). But it cuts the physical ties to the university; it allows students to work while learning (and not necessarily the menial work often masquerading as work-study); it allows a student to seek out a broad range of courses, and change/drop terrible lecturers.</p>

<p>As to the observation of what’s next a “virtual fraternity”? What do you think CC is? I don’t mean that as demeaning - merely to point out that we’ve been creating close relationships in ways never dreamed of a few years ago.</p>

40

<p>My son will be starting an online masters degree shortly from a top university in his field . He applied the same way as students who will be attending in person. Average math GRE 770 for those admitted.</p>

<p>He is thrilled. He can continue working for good $$$, pumping up his 401K, vacation hours, years of service in the company etc. He is able to travel for work and not miss school. </p>

<p>His company is footing the bill. His diploma will not state “distance learning”. It will be the same diploma as those who attend in person.</p>

<p>How awesome is that. He can even change jobs and still get his diploma although he would have to then foot the bill unless he can get the new employer to pick up the bill.</p>

<p>I do think this era will become known as the Education Revolution which will redefine education forever. Poor kids in 3rd world countries will eventually get the opportunity to study and learn anything with a cheap hand held device that translates languages and opens the world to them.</p>

<p>The real fear is that all information that is now freely shared will come with a price tag. It will cost you a penny even to google something. It will sadly go the way of cable TV where everything has an additional cost…ugh.</p>

<p>crosspopst with stemit</p>